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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Voadam" data-source="post: 8240923" data-attributes="member: 2209">In AD&D they were save or die on any touch, saving meant you only took 10 hp that round, 20 if they had you grabbed. You got a +4 on the save so it was easier, but you still took damage.3e's 2d4 con damage twice is pretty nasty as well regardless of your level if you are not already protected. That is one of the nastiest in the game, con damage is the only one that can kill generally.There are others besides detective stories.They could be a plot element powerful bodyguard threat that is not planned to be used as direct combat. "I hear Boritsi is protected by the Ermordenung, an elite all women society of assassins."They could be a known big threat in a Leverage style heist. "The Kargatane wants you to acquire the letters that Madame Velini holds. She is known to kill with a contact poison that has no known antidote. Direct confrontation is not advised. You have five days."They fall into a similar category to a lot of undead in AD&D, nasty dangerous glass cannons. A big pack of ghouls is similar, save or be paralyzed for longer than the encounter.</blockquote>