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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6265026" data-attributes="member: 4937">I disagree that good sandboxes are incomplete (beyond the sense any secondary creation is incomplete), random or a hodgepodge - much less all three.You'd be wrong then.  I like sandboxes, non-linear play, and player proaction.   KotB is IMO about the exact opposite of that, which is why it is so appealing to novice DMs unable to handle more complicated play, and why Dragonlance utterly fails in the same hands.  KotB does nothing to help a DM prep for real divergence in a story, and in fact that's the entire point.  Dungeons are really orderly, predictable Small Worlds with nice stout Adamantium Walls, and frankly KotB had me kicking at those walls and its logical inconsistancies back when I was 10 years old.  Oh brother...  You used those words again.  "You kids get off my lawn.", is funny when directed at kids and self-consciously.  It's not so funny when directed as serious criticism at someone with 30+ years experience on the lawn.Here's the thing.  After 30+ years of playing D&D, I've reached the point as a player that a random, hodgepodge, incomplete dungeon filled with treasure to take and monsters to overcome... isn't a scenario worth interacting with as a player at all.   In fact, as is a scenario I wouldn't give you 5 cents for it or waste 5 minutes of my time on it as a player or a DM.   "Here is a dungeon" got really boring 16 @#$@ years ago.  There isn't anything meaningful to do in such a scenario.  If killing things and taking their stuff was sufficient, I can do that in NetHack or any number of pointless free to play flash games with much easier book keeping and greater speed of play.  The novelty has long sense worn off and the excitement of exploring something so one dimensional and intellectually linear (no matter how geographically non-linear) to me has all the excitement of watching paint dry.I don't think you have a freaking clue where I'm coming from, so take your unreflective sterotyping and false dichotomies elsewhere.I know how KotB is meant to be run.  I've ran it completely twice, once the way it was intended when I was 10, and again when I was 17 mostly the way it was intended but with my improved understanding as a 17 year old DM with much more experience.  If I went back to it, I'd run it competely a different way, but at that point the module per se would completely disappear because it has such thin and valueless content its adding that there would be in no sense trying to conform to it except in broad spirit in the first place.</blockquote>

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