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Reading & Running old D&D adventure/delves... Am I missing something?
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<blockquote data-quote="GX.Sigma" data-source="post: 6265202" data-attributes="member: 6690511"><p>I agree. The Keep isn't satisfactory as a home base (because it's presented in such a hard-to-digest, dungeony way), and it isn't satisfactory as an adventure location in itself (because there's nothing interesting in it).</p><p></p><p>I think this is a fair criticism to a point--it's not like the little 32-page booklet is going to be a full campaign setting, but it could have done a lot more to flesh out the environment. On the other hand, I think the greatest strength of KotB is that it starts small. It introduces the players and DM to the idea of a small sandbox (the Caves of Chaos), then once they're done with that, they're ready for a bigger sandbox (the whole wilderness). Of course, from that perspective, it's strange that Gygax even put a wilderness map into the module at all, since that's not the point of the adventure (I suspect most DMs just skipped it).</p><p></p><p>Again, this to me is a double-edged sword. I like that it puts the novice DM into a situation where they have to start creating stuff (even the CoC reinforces this, since it can get pretty boring if the DM doesn't decide to spice it up). The problem is more that it doesn't give the DM the tools to do that. The module is not really presented as a toolbox, even though it seems that's what it wants to be. If it had a little more self-awareness, it would just be a generic town and a generic dungeon, and then tons of ideas on how to make it your own, and build the world around it.</p><p></p><p>When I ran CoC for my current group, it had a lot of meaningful exploration choices. Finding (and continually looking for) the secret connections between the caves was fun, and the players constantly debated whether or not they should try "death cave" (the minotaur cave with bones and treasure strewn outside).</p><p></p><p>I have struggled with this syndrome, though. Do you know of any dungeon adventures that "do it right?"</p><p> </p><p>I totally agree. That advice is just inexcusable. There shouldn't even <em>be </em>a wilderness map if the players aren't supposed to wander off into the wilderness.</p><p></p><p>The biggest problem with Gygax modules. He spends pages and pages on overwritten minutiae, and skimps on actually making it easy for the DM to run. There's no reason a more competent author couldn't have done that within the same page count (<a href="http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ZAbVL1u1ltY/TnJ5RT3V7wI/AAAAAAAACP8/kHRxBDKiGtQ/s1600/CAVESOFCHAOSlabelled.jpg" target="_blank">the Caves of Chaos themselves could have been much more brief</a>).</p><p></p><p>Absolutely agree. As much as I hate the unpronounceable names common in adventure content (e.g., Laraelra Thrundreth from Baldur's Gate), it really sucks to describe a character as "Farmer. NM, hp 3. 30 gp and 4 100gp gems." If the character isn't important enough to have a name, they're not important enough to be described as an individual. That said, I prefer the old piece-of-paper-with-lots-of-random-names-and-whenever-you-use-one-you-cross-it-off method (which encourages spontaneity and improvisation, rather than memorization and constantly reference).</p><p></p><p>It's like how MtG starter decks always have a few really bad cards to get players into customizing their deck. When I ran KotB as a novice DM, I found that all the flaws and incompleteness actually boosted my confidence as a DM and made me feel like I could (and should) make the adventure my own by changing stuff around and adding interesting situations. Whether that was because of some kind of Gygaxian genius or just dumb luck I don't know (probably a bit of both). Maybe I'm just a D&D masochist. In my mind it's a classic, it does what it needs to do, and I'd recommend it to any novice DM who just wanted to jump right into the deep end and out of their comfort zone. However, I wish there was a product that did it better (as in, knew what kind of product it wanted to be, and successfully executed it). Maybe the 4eE DMK got closest.</p><p></p><p>That reminds me, I was going to start a thread about that.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="GX.Sigma, post: 6265202, member: 6690511"] I agree. The Keep isn't satisfactory as a home base (because it's presented in such a hard-to-digest, dungeony way), and it isn't satisfactory as an adventure location in itself (because there's nothing interesting in it). I think this is a fair criticism to a point--it's not like the little 32-page booklet is going to be a full campaign setting, but it could have done a lot more to flesh out the environment. On the other hand, I think the greatest strength of KotB is that it starts small. It introduces the players and DM to the idea of a small sandbox (the Caves of Chaos), then once they're done with that, they're ready for a bigger sandbox (the whole wilderness). Of course, from that perspective, it's strange that Gygax even put a wilderness map into the module at all, since that's not the point of the adventure (I suspect most DMs just skipped it). Again, this to me is a double-edged sword. I like that it puts the novice DM into a situation where they have to start creating stuff (even the CoC reinforces this, since it can get pretty boring if the DM doesn't decide to spice it up). The problem is more that it doesn't give the DM the tools to do that. The module is not really presented as a toolbox, even though it seems that's what it wants to be. If it had a little more self-awareness, it would just be a generic town and a generic dungeon, and then tons of ideas on how to make it your own, and build the world around it. When I ran CoC for my current group, it had a lot of meaningful exploration choices. Finding (and continually looking for) the secret connections between the caves was fun, and the players constantly debated whether or not they should try "death cave" (the minotaur cave with bones and treasure strewn outside). I have struggled with this syndrome, though. Do you know of any dungeon adventures that "do it right?" I totally agree. That advice is just inexcusable. There shouldn't even [I]be [/I]a wilderness map if the players aren't supposed to wander off into the wilderness. The biggest problem with Gygax modules. He spends pages and pages on overwritten minutiae, and skimps on actually making it easy for the DM to run. There's no reason a more competent author couldn't have done that within the same page count ([URL="http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ZAbVL1u1ltY/TnJ5RT3V7wI/AAAAAAAACP8/kHRxBDKiGtQ/s1600/CAVESOFCHAOSlabelled.jpg"]the Caves of Chaos themselves could have been much more brief[/URL]). Absolutely agree. As much as I hate the unpronounceable names common in adventure content (e.g., Laraelra Thrundreth from Baldur's Gate), it really sucks to describe a character as "Farmer. NM, hp 3. 30 gp and 4 100gp gems." If the character isn't important enough to have a name, they're not important enough to be described as an individual. That said, I prefer the old piece-of-paper-with-lots-of-random-names-and-whenever-you-use-one-you-cross-it-off method (which encourages spontaneity and improvisation, rather than memorization and constantly reference). It's like how MtG starter decks always have a few really bad cards to get players into customizing their deck. When I ran KotB as a novice DM, I found that all the flaws and incompleteness actually boosted my confidence as a DM and made me feel like I could (and should) make the adventure my own by changing stuff around and adding interesting situations. Whether that was because of some kind of Gygaxian genius or just dumb luck I don't know (probably a bit of both). Maybe I'm just a D&D masochist. In my mind it's a classic, it does what it needs to do, and I'd recommend it to any novice DM who just wanted to jump right into the deep end and out of their comfort zone. However, I wish there was a product that did it better (as in, knew what kind of product it wanted to be, and successfully executed it). Maybe the 4eE DMK got closest. That reminds me, I was going to start a thread about that. [/QUOTE]
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