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Message: <blockquote data-quote="nittanytbone" data-source="post: 3455467" data-attributes="member: 35709">Upon approaching the door, I would give the PCs a Listen check (rolled secretly, by me).If the rogues are whispering to set up their ambush, it'd be DC 15 + 5 for the interposing door + 1 per 10' of distance +5 for "listener distracted" unless they specifically stop for a few rounds to be quiet and listen.If the rogues are trying to be quiet, they could use their MS checks.  I'd have them take 10 on the skill as they aren't rushed or threatened.Upon opening the door, I would give the PCs a Spot check as NO action as they are entering a new area.  However, the rogues are still very likely to still obtain surprise.The spot check would get a -1 penalty for each 10 feet of distance.  Furthermore, the rogues have likely had time to Take 20 on the Hide check, or at least Take 10.  If some of the rogues have 100% cover or concealment, then they'd get +40 to their check (per being Invisible), but of course this would require them to spend actions getting out from behind the cover before attacking (standing up from behind the crates or whatever).Example:  A trio of level 3 rogues with 14 Dex and maxed hide/MS:-The Listen Check is DC 31 (10 + 2 DEX + 6 ranks + 5 door + 3 for 30 feet + 5 distracted)-The Spot Check is DC31 as well (20 + 2 DEX + 6 ranks + 3 for 30 feet)You'd have to have a +11 check modifier (example, a level ~5 druid with maxed Spot) to even have a CHANCE of detecting these fellas.</blockquote>

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