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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Paul Grogan" data-source="post: 3456160" data-attributes="member: 45445">And this is the thing.  What is to stop everytime anyone goes into a room, they always say that, which means there is never a surprise round.  I can see the reasoning for this, and part of me says that it is unfair for the characters to have faced a surprise round and then to lose initiative when they are fully prepared for a fight.  Basically, they are in a thieves guild, and they have been in a number of rooms already and fought rogues, but if you allow then to do this then, whats to stop them doing this all the time in every situation.And thats what I was querying.  A few people have said I did it right, but I wasnt sure.Forget the whole thing with the listen checks.  Lets just go with the rogues in the room know for a fact that the players are outside and about to burst in.  The players think there may be enemies in the room but have no proof.  Forget the hiding thing.Two options for what happens when the door is opened:1. Enemies get a surprise round, then roll initiative2. Door opens - Everyone rolls initiativeI'm thinking that option 1 is correct.  If both sides heard each other, then you would be in combat straight away, ticking off rounds.  There is an example of this in DMG.  At this point the bad guys would be readying actions to shoot.On a related note - its good to see the "Can I take 20 on a hide check" discussion again, I still dont have a definite answer to that, some people say yes, some say no.  Strictly speaking, there is no penalty for failure.  Those who say this have got that bit wrong.  A penalty for failure means something bad happening (climbing, disabling device, etc).  Somebody spotting you could indirectly cause something bad to happen, but thats not the same.</blockquote>

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