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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Magus Coeruleus" data-source="post: 1264524" data-attributes="member: 1704">KD,I see your point, but I really don't see rolling for initiative as a problem.  Just because you decide to have a contingency plan outside of combat shouldn't, in my mind anyway, guarantee that you get to go first a la readying an action in combat.  If you point a crossbow at someone's head and want to fire if they start casting, well first of all I'd say that as soon as you start to raise your crossbow, it's time to roll for initiative.  If the other person is not aware, then combat has started and it's the surprise round.  I think it's really that simple.  If it's blatant enough what you're doing, roll for initiative.  If not, roll a Spot check or whatever to determine whether the opponent is surprised.Now let's compare that to within combat, because as I understand it you take issue with the fact that outside of combat you'd have to roll, and in combat you wouldn't.  Why, then?  Well, put simply, you can ready an action after combat has started, and be virtually guaranteed of going first, because you have the initiative.  (You can only ready an action on your initiative, after all).  It's that simple.  Initiative has already been determined, and on your turn, you ready an action.  That's why you don't have to roll.  When out of combat, no one yet has the advantage.  Once in combat, advantage goes to the person with current initiative.Ok, finally, let's consider what I consider your most interesting question--what happens when two characters ready an action (at different times, because they have different initiative, of course) to occur, ON THE SAME TRIGGER.  Like the wizards wanting to MM (or for that matter counterspell) each other.  Great question, and to my knowledge it is NOT, strictly speaking covered in the rules (I haven't looked very hard, mind you).  Now, there's nothing in the rules to suggest that a) the person who readied first goes first, nor b) the person with the higher Dex goes first.  Frankly, once you're readying, your initiative is in limbo except for the fact that if it comes to your turn the next round, you can choose whether to re-ready or do something else.  In this case, although the rules are not clear, I would argue for making an initiative roll.Let me be clear, though:  I am not suggesting rerolling for purposes of the person's initiative count in the combat overall, relative to everyone else's initiative.  No, I'm suggesting an initiative roll among all of the individuals whose readied actions have been triggered by the same event, just to determine the order in which their actions will take place.  Their new initiative count will be that of the trigger, and within that count, in order of those rolls.  Note that this new initiative order makes as much sense as the standard rule for giving an individual the same initiative as that of the trigger, going immediately before the trigger.  Now, however, you have two or more people all going before the trigger, and the mid-combat initiative roll is made simply to determine the order within that group.I think it's fair, and while it might sound a little weird, I don't think it comes up that often and it's not really that complicated.  It also, I believe, makes the most sense.  If you and I are in combat and have readies on the same trigger, what SHOULD influence who goes first other than the same factors that influence the original initiative roll (Dex, relevant feats, randomness)?  Alternatively, you could allow for simultaneous readied actions, but then that suggests that to be consistent you should allow simultaneous normal non-readied actions whenever people are tied for combat initiative.Cheers,MC</blockquote>

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