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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Lonely Tylenol" data-source="post: 3214306" data-attributes="member: 18549">My problem with this sort of thing usually comes when players try to "beat" the initiative system by doing things that will allow them to automatically get the first action.  For example, the players suspect that around the corner, there are some goblins.  They don't know there are, and have no evidence that there are, but let's say for the sake of the example that this is a dungeon with several corners around which goblins are (and several around which they are not).  However, no listen or spot checks have been successful in indicating the presence of enemies.  So they get ready to ambush the goblins they "know" are there.  The party creeps up to the corner, and on "go" they run around to attack.The goblins, who are in fact there, hearing the party coming, pick up loaded crossbows and wait.  They know the party is there.When combat begins, which will presumably happen as soon as the PCs stick their heads around the corner, initiative is rolled and the goblins get a surprise round because they knew the PCs were there, but the PCs were pretty much guessing at something that wasn't a sure thing.  The goblins could conceivably get two attacks worth of crossbow bolts on the lead PC before he can act.At this point, the players will cry, "but we were in the middle of an action!  How can they get two attacks before we even get one?"  The DM answers "you didn't know that there were goblins there.  They knew you were there, and they were ready.  If I let you guess at there being enemies around every corner, there will never again be surprise rounds that don't go in your favour.  You weren't prepared for crossbow bolts in the face, so you're surprised."The players whine and cry and try to tell the DM that it doesn't make sense that their advance be halted while goblins shoot, reload, and shoot again.  The DM wonders why he plays with players who insist on trying to circumvent the rules for their benefit.Being able to just roll initiative for the goblins when they hear the PCs, and allow them to ready an action to shoot the first enemy they see makes more sense, and saves having to fight with the players over weird rule effects.</blockquote>

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