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Message: <blockquote data-quote="hong" data-source="post: 101050" data-attributes="member: 537">Re: Re: Re: Re: Real world myths and legends: Who's Epic Level?Okay, maybe I was a bit snippy before, so maybe I should try to redeem myself by posting something more productive.A basic problem here is that "epic level" means different things to different people. The forthcoming ELH defines it in straight numeric terms as having character levels in excess of 20, but that just begs the question of what those levels are meant to represent.Some people are taking the term to mean "plays an epic role in a narrative", which is fair enough -- it's basically what the term would mean outside the D&D context. However, this is a very loose definition, and has just as much to do with the narrative as any intrinsic qualities of the character. By this definition, one could say that Frodo and Sam were "epic level", because they saved the West from the One Ring. However, I don't think anyone would suggest that Frodo and Sam -- however tough and hardy they were -- were really characters who could challenge gods or wield world-cracking powers. As characters, they remain within the realm of mortals -- you can identify with them _as ordinary people_, rather than as demigods.Another possible definition of "epic level" is embodying the pinnacle of particular human traits or aspirations. Someone like James Bond, who is the ultimate super-spy, or Superman, who is the ultimate paladin, would be "epic level" in this regard. So would most of the Greek gods, who are basically humans with motivations, strengths and weaknesses extrapolated to the nth degree. This would be more in keeping with my intuitive understanding of what "epic level" means. However, having lots of powers isn't a prerequisite for this sort of thing. Someone like Captain America, for instance, plays much the same role in the Marvel lineup as does Supes in DC -- the ultimate good guy. However, Cap is by any measure a much lower-powered character than Supes. Similarly, while James Bond is an epic spy, a lot of his exploits could arguably be attributed to his having Plot Immunity rather than any intrinsic ability -- the bad guys keep missing him, because that's their job as bad guys, not because he can dodge bullets atwill. It's not James Bond's fault that he appeared in lots of dodgy movies....Another problem is that, as mentioned previously, the line between high-level D&D and epic-level D&D is blurry. A 20th level character is already capable of feats that would be beyond ordinary people, especially if magic is taken into account (as it should). In your ordinary moderate-level D&D campaign world, such a character could well be "epic" for all intents and purposes.</blockquote>

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