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General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Realism vs. Believability and the Design of HPs, Powers and Other Things
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 5884140" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>I guess so, although the notion of "raw talent" in relation to (say) sprinting, blacksmithing, crocheting, or arguing a legal case in front of the Supreme Court, is probably pretty different in each case.</p><p></p><p>But even if we go with a standard, ability-score approach to "raw talent", there are lots of different options.</p><p></p><p>One is straight-down-the-line NWP: raw talent is the overwhelmingly dominant consideration. A variation on this is the Skills & Powers approach, which uses stat bonuses rather than stat scores, and so flattens the difference between ability scores in the 8 to 13 range.</p><p></p><p>Another is the Rolemaster or 3E approach - stat bonuses are added to a rank bonus, and the character development mechanic means that the rank bonus quickly outstrips the stat bonus. Stat is still very important in both systems, though, because in RM ranks give diminishing returns (+5/+2/+1/+0.5 per rank for ranks 1-10/11-20/21-30/31+), and in 3E DCS tend to scale in such a way that the extra edge provided by a stat is always a strong benefit. (4e resembles 3E in this respect.)</p><p></p><p>Another is the Burning Wheel approach - stat determines starting ranks when a skill is opened, but otherwise has no effect. In combination with a diminishing returns approach to skill rank increase - increases are based on use, and require more (and more dangerous) use the higher your existing rank - this means that a high stat is a benefit when opening new skills, but becomes less significant as a skill increases.</p><p></p><p>Runequest combines aspects of the RM/3E approach and the BW approach - stats provide a (modest) bonus to the starting score of a skill, but increase is then based on the famous "roll over on % dice after using a skill" method. So like BW "raw talent" (good stats) boosts starting scores, but the gap is going to close over the course of play, as those who start with lower bonuses get more skill increases (due to it being easier to roll over a low skill) until they start to catch up.</p><p></p><p>I think I'm becoming a bigger fan of stats mattering less, and so think I prefer the RQ or BW approaches to the RM, 3E or NWP approaches. I imagine that D&Dnext will not use the RQ or BW approach to skill increase (very hard to port into a non-level-less game, apart from anything else). But there must be other ways of making raw talent (ie stat) give a hand up early on, but reduce in importance as the game progresses, and ranks earned in play come to dominate.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 5884140, member: 42582"] I guess so, although the notion of "raw talent" in relation to (say) sprinting, blacksmithing, crocheting, or arguing a legal case in front of the Supreme Court, is probably pretty different in each case. But even if we go with a standard, ability-score approach to "raw talent", there are lots of different options. One is straight-down-the-line NWP: raw talent is the overwhelmingly dominant consideration. A variation on this is the Skills & Powers approach, which uses stat bonuses rather than stat scores, and so flattens the difference between ability scores in the 8 to 13 range. Another is the Rolemaster or 3E approach - stat bonuses are added to a rank bonus, and the character development mechanic means that the rank bonus quickly outstrips the stat bonus. Stat is still very important in both systems, though, because in RM ranks give diminishing returns (+5/+2/+1/+0.5 per rank for ranks 1-10/11-20/21-30/31+), and in 3E DCS tend to scale in such a way that the extra edge provided by a stat is always a strong benefit. (4e resembles 3E in this respect.) Another is the Burning Wheel approach - stat determines starting ranks when a skill is opened, but otherwise has no effect. In combination with a diminishing returns approach to skill rank increase - increases are based on use, and require more (and more dangerous) use the higher your existing rank - this means that a high stat is a benefit when opening new skills, but becomes less significant as a skill increases. Runequest combines aspects of the RM/3E approach and the BW approach - stats provide a (modest) bonus to the starting score of a skill, but increase is then based on the famous "roll over on % dice after using a skill" method. So like BW "raw talent" (good stats) boosts starting scores, but the gap is going to close over the course of play, as those who start with lower bonuses get more skill increases (due to it being easier to roll over a low skill) until they start to catch up. I think I'm becoming a bigger fan of stats mattering less, and so think I prefer the RQ or BW approaches to the RM, 3E or NWP approaches. I imagine that D&Dnext will not use the RQ or BW approach to skill increase (very hard to port into a non-level-less game, apart from anything else). But there must be other ways of making raw talent (ie stat) give a hand up early on, but reduce in importance as the game progresses, and ranks earned in play come to dominate. [/QUOTE]
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