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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 8006499" data-attributes="member: 6696971">These are all 3 thoughtful posts.  FrogReaver and prabe are both correct and a part of Fanaelialae's post is certainly correct.However, there is more.  This each of these are parts of the whole.  Here are the other areas that hook into this whole thing.I'll start with a very good post by Lanefan below because it addresses a core, conceptual difference here between Blades and Adventure Path D&D (despite the fact that a lot of D&D is a classic "heist game", like Blades):1)  Like Lanefan is talking in the post above, Blades is an EXTREMELY thematically aggressive game where the PCs are meant to advocate for their interests and the game and GM is meant to follow both the disparate interests of the PCs and the holistic interests of their Crew.  Adventure Path D&D reverses the poles on these relationships almost exactly.  Overwhelmingly, the game is about the thematics of the setting and the inertia of the metaplot (not the thematic dynamism of the PCs and the game/story emerging from that) and the GM does at least as much leading as s/he does following (if not much, much more leading).  The players know this.  The GMs know this.2)  Following directly from the above, you're going to have an "AP player archetype" that is deeply acquainted with all of these relationships and likely has an orientation toward "correctly triggering the GM to trigger the metaplot and reveal the codified setting dynamics" with extreme vigor.  If you insert another player who has a different orientation (say, aggressively advocating for what they see as the thematic interests of their character or "pushing the candy red button to see what happens"), friction can arise.3)  PCs can marshal many more resources for both success and for the mitigation of consequences (while quantitatively understanding how all of these resources intersect with the resolution mechanics and possibly get them in trouble later) in a game like Blades than in a game like D&D 5e.  As such, there is a position of confidence they experience that (nonspellcaster) D&D players do not when confronting noncombat obstacles specifically.4)  Blades is player-facing and GM constraining in the extreme.  As such, the order of operations in play and the operations themselves are consistent and deeply understood at all moments of play.   5e D&D resolution of noncombat conflicts is overwhelming the opposite.  5e D&D actual social conflict is akin to a game of "Social Pictionary (SP)" mashed with "Wheel of Fortune (WoF)" with a mediator who may not perform adequately in either/both of the SP or WoF portions of their job from conflict to conflict.  Its a very loose game of decryption and puzzle solving.  Due to that looseness and the fact that PCs (one or all) could be dealing with a wobbly cipher now and again (or any/all participants could be dealing with various other states such as fatigue or waning attention span), a player in a 5e D&D game may feel very differently from moment to moment in how well they understand the implications/stakes/operational aspects of a social challenge or an exploration challenge.Its made more difficult when a GM feels that they've done a good job in their SP or WoF roles, when in fact they may not have done as well as they think they have (or, because they carry with them the context of reading the actual module, they may think that pieces of the macro puzzle that they disseminate make senes, while, in fact, they don't and the GM is just dealing with the cognitive bias of having read the module).There is an inherent vulnerability there that Blades players will fundamentally never experience.Player:  "We're on 4 out of 6 of the Tug-of-War Clock to convince the Mad Baron that the militia doesn't trust him, his people hate him, his captain's allegiance is flagging and that he should leave town before a full-throated revolt ensues.  And he's just threatened to call his guard on us because Vildente manifested a Demon that read his mind and forced him to speak his deepest, darkest secrets aloud to his court.  Alright.  I stand completely relaxed at his threat.  He's clearly unsettled from the brief possession.  I don't address the Baron.  I look directly at the Captain of the Guard and say 'I know you've served this man for a decade and have some conflicted love for him despite his horrible rule...we promise that we're the best smugglers around...we'll get he and his family out of the city without a riot claiming their lives.'GM:  "Sounds like Sway.  I'm not sure how the Captain would feel after the summoning of the demon.  I'm going to Disclaim this roll.  Someone roll a d6.  1-3 and Desperate Position, 4-5 and Risky, 6 and Controlled.  5?  Ok, Risky Position and Normal Effect.  If you get a 4-5 we'll tick the Tug-of-War Clock 1 with a Complication.  On a 6, the Clock will go to 6.  1-3 and back 2."Quite different orientation in terms of opacity/transparency of mechanics, authority, the malleability of the fiction and its various imagined entities (the demon, the baron, the guard, the court, etc), and the players relationship to all of it.I think that orientation and those relationships are all very key (along with what was written by the above posters) in unpacking why the different play experience (and the attendent feelings about it by the participants) emerges.</blockquote>

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