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General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
Realistic Consequences vs Gameplay
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<blockquote data-quote="Fenris-77" data-source="post: 8007101" data-attributes="member: 6993955"><p>I think there are two different things on the table here. On the one hand we have dialogue, which, frankly, isn't and shouldn't be something that need mechanics to reproduce, either for PC-PC or PC-NPC situations. The thing that's really at issue is dialogue with intent, where there there is a particular desired outcome of the action in question, and that outcome is in some doubt. This is a sticky topic to use examples from books for, because in those cases the author generally knows what the outcome is and it isn't in doubt. This is made more difficult because two rational people can have very different views of what was actually going on in a given interaction. We only see the dialogue, not the actions declaration, which is what really indexes intent.</p><p></p><p>The example of Gimli and Legolas talking to Eomer is a great example. I have a very different reading of that exchange than some of the ones that have appeared upstream. The whole of LotR is very rooted in Saxon and Norse myth and culture, and the responses of both Legolas and Gimli in that exchange are 'heroic' in that they show Eomer something about the mettle of the two, a measure of their character as it were. Eomer is a warrior, and when he sees that both Legolas and Gimli are also warriors, that they adhere to something like the same code of conduct and speech acts, which in this case specifically does not brook insult, he sees them as worthy - hence the gift of horses. To model that in-game there would probably need to be a preexisiting understanding of the warrior ethos in question, and definitely a declaration of actions something like - <em>I am a warrior born and brook no insult, I will show this man that he must treat me with respect.</em> Without that culture of warrior boasts the exchange reads very differently. Modelling social interaction in LotR generally is hard for most TTRPGs because their base assumptions about the meaning of actions, and what matters in a given exchange, can be very different than model(s) Tolkien was working with.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Fenris-77, post: 8007101, member: 6993955"] I think there are two different things on the table here. On the one hand we have dialogue, which, frankly, isn't and shouldn't be something that need mechanics to reproduce, either for PC-PC or PC-NPC situations. The thing that's really at issue is dialogue with intent, where there there is a particular desired outcome of the action in question, and that outcome is in some doubt. This is a sticky topic to use examples from books for, because in those cases the author generally knows what the outcome is and it isn't in doubt. This is made more difficult because two rational people can have very different views of what was actually going on in a given interaction. We only see the dialogue, not the actions declaration, which is what really indexes intent. The example of Gimli and Legolas talking to Eomer is a great example. I have a very different reading of that exchange than some of the ones that have appeared upstream. The whole of LotR is very rooted in Saxon and Norse myth and culture, and the responses of both Legolas and Gimli in that exchange are 'heroic' in that they show Eomer something about the mettle of the two, a measure of their character as it were. Eomer is a warrior, and when he sees that both Legolas and Gimli are also warriors, that they adhere to something like the same code of conduct and speech acts, which in this case specifically does not brook insult, he sees them as worthy - hence the gift of horses. To model that in-game there would probably need to be a preexisiting understanding of the warrior ethos in question, and definitely a declaration of actions something like - [I]I am a warrior born and brook no insult, I will show this man that he must treat me with respect.[/I] Without that culture of warrior boasts the exchange reads very differently. Modelling social interaction in LotR generally is hard for most TTRPGs because their base assumptions about the meaning of actions, and what matters in a given exchange, can be very different than model(s) Tolkien was working with. [/QUOTE]
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