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Realistic Consequences vs Gameplay
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<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 8007338" data-attributes="member: 6696971"><p>This thread has moved along quite a bit. I've read most of the intervening posts, but quoting everything that provoked thought would make for a mess. So some thoughts:</p><p></p><p>1) Scripted social conflict where the players' role (through their PCs) is tip-toe around and cater to/placate the unidimensionality of an NPC in order to access a "content/info dump" completely subverts any idea that the PCs are protoganists with thematic interests that should emerge through and propel play. The only party with thematic interests that will emerge through and propel play in that model is the NPC! They become the protagonist for the conflict! If that is true (and I'm quite confident in that arithmetic), does anyone actually think that is a good model to follow for TTRPGing? If you do and you agree with that assessment above, I'd love to hear why.</p><p></p><p>2) Why would someone who writes an adventure EVER create a unidimensional NPC that must be dealt with in a very particular way? Even the most "paranoid strongmen" have nuance to them. They have a person (perhaps a few) that they secretly respect beyond all others from which admonishment is actually meaningful. They have regrets and shame that are buried away but are capable of being unlocked and brought to the fore. They have deep fears that can be made manifest that can have them press the nuclear option (flee or suicide). They have egos that are profoundly fragile and lacking resiliency such that a serious challenge and then a following through makes them question their autobiographical depiction of themselves in their heads.</p><p></p><p>Broadly in TTRPGing, I can think of many, many systems that can handle a hardened "paranoid strongman", retain the arrangement of "PCs as protagonists (and obstacles as antagonists)", whereby perhaps any combination of strongman changes/setting changes/one or more PCs change as a result of the PCs advocating for their thematic interests and the social conflict mechanics playing out to their conclusion. </p><p></p><p>Why can't/doesn't a GM arrange this strongman's Ideal, Bond and Flaw with something like the below:</p><p></p><p><strong>Ideal </strong>- The people recognize my efforts are for their own good and they love me for it.</p><p><strong>Bond </strong>- I trust the Captain of my Guard more than anyone in the world; perhaps more than myself.</p><p><strong>Flaw </strong>- Reactionary narcissist.</p><p></p><p>So (a) if you have a PC that does exactly what the PC does in this game (calls him out for being a tyrant unworthy of ruling this people) and (b) the player succeeds on his Charisma check, why can't literally all 3 of these IBFs manifest as a result?</p><p></p><p>* The NPC calls for his Captain to arrest this fool. The Captain (who suddenly becomes the intersection of the PCs successful check, the Baron's Flaw, and the setting at large) pauses and says "...he says nothing different than what the people are saying in the safety and privacy of their homes sir...arresting him will not sanitize that image...it will further sully it." After which, the Baron clearly shrinks and blanches while he gathers himself (after which the GM will either reframe the conflict with his next move from the Baron or another NPC present, or a player can make a follow-up move to reframe things).</p><p></p><p>* The player has changed the gamestate functionally (the players can now use IBF machinery to leverage action resolution success for the rest of the social conflict) and interestingly while expressing a thematic interest (maintained protagonism), the NPC has changed as a result, the setting has emerged through actual play.</p><p></p><p>Why is what happened in the lead post preferrable to the above? For 5e D&D or any system?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 8007338, member: 6696971"] This thread has moved along quite a bit. I've read most of the intervening posts, but quoting everything that provoked thought would make for a mess. So some thoughts: 1) Scripted social conflict where the players' role (through their PCs) is tip-toe around and cater to/placate the unidimensionality of an NPC in order to access a "content/info dump" completely subverts any idea that the PCs are protoganists with thematic interests that should emerge through and propel play. The only party with thematic interests that will emerge through and propel play in that model is the NPC! They become the protagonist for the conflict! If that is true (and I'm quite confident in that arithmetic), does anyone actually think that is a good model to follow for TTRPGing? If you do and you agree with that assessment above, I'd love to hear why. 2) Why would someone who writes an adventure EVER create a unidimensional NPC that must be dealt with in a very particular way? Even the most "paranoid strongmen" have nuance to them. They have a person (perhaps a few) that they secretly respect beyond all others from which admonishment is actually meaningful. They have regrets and shame that are buried away but are capable of being unlocked and brought to the fore. They have deep fears that can be made manifest that can have them press the nuclear option (flee or suicide). They have egos that are profoundly fragile and lacking resiliency such that a serious challenge and then a following through makes them question their autobiographical depiction of themselves in their heads. Broadly in TTRPGing, I can think of many, many systems that can handle a hardened "paranoid strongman", retain the arrangement of "PCs as protagonists (and obstacles as antagonists)", whereby perhaps any combination of strongman changes/setting changes/one or more PCs change as a result of the PCs advocating for their thematic interests and the social conflict mechanics playing out to their conclusion. Why can't/doesn't a GM arrange this strongman's Ideal, Bond and Flaw with something like the below: [B]Ideal [/B]- The people recognize my efforts are for their own good and they love me for it. [B]Bond [/B]- I trust the Captain of my Guard more than anyone in the world; perhaps more than myself. [B]Flaw [/B]- Reactionary narcissist. So (a) if you have a PC that does exactly what the PC does in this game (calls him out for being a tyrant unworthy of ruling this people) and (b) the player succeeds on his Charisma check, why can't literally all 3 of these IBFs manifest as a result? * The NPC calls for his Captain to arrest this fool. The Captain (who suddenly becomes the intersection of the PCs successful check, the Baron's Flaw, and the setting at large) pauses and says "...he says nothing different than what the people are saying in the safety and privacy of their homes sir...arresting him will not sanitize that image...it will further sully it." After which, the Baron clearly shrinks and blanches while he gathers himself (after which the GM will either reframe the conflict with his next move from the Baron or another NPC present, or a player can make a follow-up move to reframe things). * The player has changed the gamestate functionally (the players can now use IBF machinery to leverage action resolution success for the rest of the social conflict) and interestingly while expressing a thematic interest (maintained protagonism), the NPC has changed as a result, the setting has emerged through actual play. Why is what happened in the lead post preferrable to the above? For 5e D&D or any system? [/QUOTE]
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