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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8011112" data-attributes="member: 42582">I was replying to your remark about a murder mystery, not about deciding to sneak past the guards.But in either case, isn't action resolution - applied systematically over the course of play - the way that we find out whether or not the PCs made a poor or mistaken decision?I've called out a few bits of your posts that I wanted to respond to.For this one, I'd often treat getting to the gate as framing rather than action declaration. Unless a player particularly wants to get some advantage out of treating it as an action - less of an issue in D&D, but in other systems this coud be establishing some sort of augment eg for having a Superior Vantage Point.In a lot of these cases I don't even think of it as action resolution. The "genre filter" operates at a prior stage: we don't get to resolution because no permissible action has been declared.Various versions of D&D have a Streetwise or Gather Information skill/ability (eg 4e, 3E, AD&D Oriental Adventures via the Yakuza class, even sages in AD&D and B/X). So even within the compass of D&D there can be action declarations that allow the players to try and expand the scope of future potential action declarations.I have played with D&D GMs whose response to that sort of thing is to shut it down - ie the inquiries produce no new information or options, all the potential informants remain silent, etc. I personally regard that as terrible GMing.I have also played with D&D GMs who don't shut this sort of thing down but string it out endlessly - leads lead to leads lead to leads lead to session after session of trying to "find the plot". I also regard that as awful.Although D&D doesn't have the same sort of crisp framework as (say) Fate or Burning Wheel for handling this sort of stuff, I still think there are better and worse ways for a D&D GM to handle it, which relate to some of what we've been talking about in this thread like (i) does the GM treat his/her notes as "total" or as a springboard? and (ii) to what extent does the GM follow the fiction and the impetus of play?To relate the above to the example at hand: if the GM narrates the guards, and hints at or foreshadows the sewer, what happens if the PCs start searching for a hidden postern they can enter through? I don't think there's a single best answer, because it's so contextual. If it looks like the players are themselves trying to string things out, or squib in some fashion, because they're having trouble screwing up their courage to try and enter the castle, then as a GM I think it can make sense to force them to confront the choice: Come on, people, what's it going to be? The gate, or the sewer? But if there is something genuinely going on - eg one of the PCs is an engineer or architect and so has some special interest in finding and exploiting the postern - then I think the GM would do better to take it seriously and see where it goes.(The engineer/architect PC is like my bakers and vintners from upthread.)I think this is why it makes sense to talk about principle and approaches that can make for a better or worse play experience. 4e D&D made the GM's job easier, because at a certai point responsibility for following the fiction and working out what happens gets passed off to the skill challenge framework. Whereas in the 5e context there is a risk that everything all the way up to the point of ultimate success or failure is GM decides. But I reckon there must be methods even in 5e for avoiding this - eg whether the postern is discovered or not can be put onto some sort of check or spell use or triggering of a background ability; there are guidelines for establishing encounters on the other side of the postern; etc.If the idea that the player has is genre and gameplay appropriate, then cannot be made to work seems to mean doesn't fit with what the GM had in mind. This is what I am focusing on; and I am saying that, in general, I think it can make for a bad play experience. Because it pushes play towards working out what the GM has in mind rather than engaging and following the fiction.(To be clear: if we're playing OSR-ish/"skilled play" and we're talking about puzzling out the riddling statue, or the room of trapped demi-gods, or similar than it's a different kettle of fish. But most of this thread doesn't seem to be about that sort of play.)</blockquote>

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