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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8013059" data-attributes="member: 42582">I don't understand why you distinguish between genre inappproriate fiction and genre inappropriate action declaration. Eg how would one get the first except as a result of the second?Notice how I distinguished between (i) establishing what counts as "within genre" and "consistent with the fiction" - that is something for the table to decide on, with the GM playing a leadership but not an authoritative role - and (ii) employing the action resolution mechaincs which generate an outcome in exactly the way that [USER=99817]@chaochou[/USER] has described: if the check succeeds the player gets what s/he wants for his/her PC; if the check fails the GM narrates the failure.Your idea of "autofail" is a unilateral GM decision about genre or fictional positioning - it does not involve the negotiated/consensus aspect of (i) but also does not involve the "leave it to the dice" aspect of (ii). It is just the GM unilaterally deciding what happens next. That is what [USER=99817]@chaochou[/USER] is pointing to as negating agency. It's what the games I referred to are trying to avoid.You may not have the same desire to avoid it as did the designers of those games. But I hope that actual distinction is clear enough. I find it a pretty fundamental distinction in actual play.I assume that you're talking here about your approach to GMing 5e D&D. I'm pretty sure that 5e D&D will also work OK if you approach it having regard to my distinction between (i) and (ii) - I know that 4e D&D works just fine that way, and I don't think 5e is radically different in this respect.One important consequence of taking seriously the approach I'm setting out is that you will avoid problems like the OP's, because you will not have actions automatcially fail on the basis of elements of the fiction that are not shared but rather exist only in the mind of the GM.I don't think comparisons to chess are very helpful here. In chess players take turns and make moves according to rather rigid rules. In a traditional RPG - which all the games I've talked about in this thread are - there are quite distinct roles with very different powers and responsibilities when it comes to contributing to the shared fiction.If a player makes a move - it might be better to say attempts a move - that is consistent with the established shared fiction and the broader genre and logic of that fiction, but the GM unilaterally declares it a failure, the player has not exercised agency over the fiction. S/he might have prompted the GM to use the GM's agency - eg now the Burgomaster is mad at you and calls his guards to take you away - but that is not player agency over the fiction. The GM is writing that story. The OP is crystal clear about that much at least.</blockquote>

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