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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8013124" data-attributes="member: 42582">The question about whether anyone other than the player of a PC can make it true in the fiction that the PC does such-and-such is a different one from whether or not a player is able to make changes to the fiction.Off the top of my head I can't think of any RPG in which only the player of a PC can make it true in the fiction that that PC does such-and-such. Apocalypse World comes pretty close, but the worked examples of play make it clear that the GM is free to talk about stuff the PC does when narrating failures; though that will be mostly colour.D&D is very permissive in this respect: there are a whole host of GM or other-player moves (in the fiction they are mostly said to be magical effects) that let someone other than the player of a PC say what that PC is doing. This all goes well beyond mere colour.This doesn't always have to be magic, either. 4e D&D has a monster (I think a type of chained demon?) that can use its chains to manipulate an enemy like a marionette: in mechanical terms this lets the GM, as the player of that monster, declare actions for the PC.And there are many RPG systems that have social/emotional resolution frameworks that can allow someone other than the player of a PC to say what that PC does. The earliest published version of such a framework I know is the Classic Traveller morale rules (1977). I posted an actual play illustration of this sort of thing not far upthread: in our Prince Valiant game on Sunday the player of the Master of the Order lost the social conflict with the Count, which meant that I as GM got to decide that he agreed to let the Count lead the charge in the next day's battle.There is no particular correlation here that I can see. AW has a high degree of player ability to make changes to the fiction and a low degree of capacity for someone other than the player of a PC to make it true in the fiction that that PC does a thing. MHRP/Cortex+ Heroic has a high degree of both. A game that used GM-decides D&D to play a low- or no-magic game (thus purging out all the charm, fear, etc effects) would have a low degree of both. D&D played with the magic taken straight from the books, and using a GM-decides approach to resolution, will have a low degree of player ability to make changes to the fiction and a high degree of capacity for someone other than the player of a PC to make it true in the fiction that that PC does a thing.As I said, there seems to be no particuar correlation.</blockquote>

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