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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Maxperson" data-source="post: 8016460" data-attributes="member: 23751">These same details are also going to be shared with a player when the DM is going to make the full decision, though.  The player can calculate the odds and and make an informed decision on whether the attempt has a good chance to auto succeed or auto fail.  If making an informed decision gives agency to the player, then that agency is present when the player makes an informed decision to attempt something that he knows is very likely to be impossible, but is making the desperate attempt anyway and the DM says no.If you're walking into a meeting with a despot that you know acts in this manner, "Going into the meeting, they knew the ruler was unstable and severely punished any dissent in his land - having heard from various NPCs and seeing it firsthand.", you have the information to make an informed decision about whether or not you should make an attempt to dissent in his presence, and that the consequences will be severe.  And, since you heard stories about what he has done from "various NPCs" who saw it first hand,  you have an idea of what those consequences will be.  I wouldn't think all that much.  The rules are very clear that the DM calls for a roll when the outcome of an action is uncertain and has a meaningful outcome.  The rest of the time the DM will say yes or no. And while the DM is empowered to ignore the rules, it would be in bad faith to do so in a manner that goes against the spirit of the rules.  The DM should only go against the rules when there is a good reason to do so.  When I do that, I explain my thinking to the players as I do it.The players can reasonably rely on the DM only deciding when something will clearly succeed or clearly fail, even if the success or failure is due to something the players are unaware of, which occasionally happens.Less clear still equals a very good chance to read things correctly, though, so long as the DM is describing things the way he should be. If the DM is giving poor descriptions then there will be issues, but those issues will affect new and old players.No it's not moot, and broad doesn't take away meaning.  Think of how often you're near earth in your daily life.  I'd wager for probably 99% or more of your life there is earth near you.  That broad presence doesn't take away meaning from the word earth or what earth means.  It just means that the vast majority of the time, earth is present.It's the same with player agency.  Since my PC is shaping the fiction with the vast majority of both his successful and his failed attempts, agency is present.  I can make an informed decision and shape the fiction with my actions whether I succeed or not.  And if we add "informed" into the mix of what grants agency, then even an answer of no from the DM will still result in agency, still the player made an informed decision, decided to make the desperate attempt, and through that attempt shaped the fiction into something new.You can have greater and lesser amounts of agency depending on the system, but a DM acting in good faith results in agency almost without fail, regardless of system.  I doubt there's a RPG system out there that is designed so that there is no player agency.I disagree.  First, the player isn't going to break his foot unless the player is playing in a game with critical fumbles, in which case he is making an informed decision to kick down the door knowing that if he rolls a 1, his foot could break.  Second, even a brand new player should be able to realize that kicking a door is going to make a lot of noise and could be heard, success or failure.  So he's making an informed decision to make a ton of noise, too, unless makes the informed decision to use a silence spell first and not make noise.That or bad faith DMing where the DM says no inappropriately.  Though I guess that could be viewed as a form of losing control of the character.Sure, but an in fiction method of taking away player agency is perfectly acceptable.  It's going to be limited in duration.</blockquote>

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