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Realistic Consequences vs Gameplay
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8018177" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>I agree that the player has a dog in the fight. But I don't see the problem with that. I don't think it hurts the game for the ficiton to trend in the direction the players want.</p><p></p><p>Here are some concrete examples, from epic tier 4e D&D I've <strong>bolded</strong> the bits where players estabish credibiity; in the second quote that would mean bolding lots of it so for the sorcerer's plan I haven't bolded beyond the introduction to it):</p><p></p><p></p><p>I think that these examples illustrates pretty clear the (2a), (2b) distinction I stated upthread: first establishing feasibility/credibility by way of table consensus; then framing the action and resolving it by way of "say 'yes' or roll the dice".</p><p></p><p>In those posts there are two examples of rolling the dice: funnelling the souls across The Bridge That May Be Traversed But Once, and sealing the Abyss. There are more examples of "saying 'yes'": allowing the Thundercloud Tower to tear through the Demonwebs; allowing the previous successful Religion check to allow using the flow of souls to slow down the NPCs; allowing the Beacon to be permanentely expended in order to allow the rapid performance of a ritual; allowing Strech Spell to feed into the plan to seal the Abyss; allowing the chaos sorcerer to give of his essence to power his attempt to seal the Abyss.</p><p></p><p>Two of those examples of saying "yes" trade on the system's resource econcomy (and so are a bit like, though obviously not identical to, spending a Fate point or a Storyteller Certificate): expending the Beacon, and spending healing surges and hit points for the buff to the check. Having a robust resource economy in a game supports effective GMing in my view, especially when the game has lots of moving parts as D&D tends to.</p><p></p><p>In my view these examples of play illustrate a relative high degree of player agency in respect of the shared fiction. I think they show how that differs from what I have called "puzzle-solving" play. I also think they show an approach to RPGing that is quite different from OSR-ish/"delve"/dungeoncrawl play.</p><p></p><p>Now the maths and resource economy of 4e D&D tend to be weighted in favour of player success, which is what helps make it a game of gonzo high-fantasy. <a href="https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/burning-wheel-first-burning-wheel-session.736425/" target="_blank">Here</a> is another example, from Burning Wheel, which involves failure:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">The rogue wizard, Jobe, had a relationship with his brother and rival. </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><snip></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">I had pulled out my old Greyhawk material and told them they were starting in the town of Hardby, half-way between the forest (where the assassin [Halika] had fled from) and the desert hills (where Jobe had been travelling), and so each came up with a belief around that: <em>I'm not leaving Hardby without gaining some magical item to use against my brother</em> [was Jobe's.]</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><snip></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">I started things in the Hardby market: Jobe was looking at the wares of a peddler of trinkets and souvenirs, to see if there was anything there that might be magical or useful for enchanting for the anticipated confrontation with his brother. Given that the brother is possessed by a demon, he was looking for something angelic. The peddler pointed out an angel feather that he had for sale, brought to him from the Bright Desert. Jobe (who has, as another instinct, to always use Second Sight), used Aura Reading to study the feather for magical traits. The roll was a failure, and so he noticed that it was Resistant to Fire (potentially useful in confronting a Balrog) but also cursed. (Ancient History was involved somehow here too, maybe as a FoRK into Aura Reading (? I can't really remember), establishing something about an ancient battle between angels and demons in the desert.)</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">My memory of the precise sequence of events is hazy, but in the context the peddler was able to insist on proceeding with the sale, demanding 3 drachmas (Ob 1 resource check). As Jobe started haggling a strange woman (Halika) approached him and offered to help him if he would buy her lunch. Between the two of them, the haggling roll was still a failure, and also the subsequent Resources check: so Jobe got his feather but spent his last 3 drachmas, and was taxed down to Resources 0. They did get some more information about the feather from the peddler, however - he bought it from a wild-eyed man with dishevelled beard and hair, who said that it had come from one of the tombs in the Bright Desert.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Jobe, being unable to buy Halika any lunch, suggested he might be able to find some work for them instead.</p><p></p><p>Again there is no hint of RPG-as-puzzle. The player establishes the credibility of the peddler selling something angelic; of such a thing being useful in confronting a Balrog; and the credibility of knowing something from ancient history about such things as battels between angels and demons. But the action resolution fails, and so the feather is not as desirable as had been hoped, because it is cursed.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 8018177, member: 42582"] I agree that the player has a dog in the fight. But I don't see the problem with that. I don't think it hurts the game for the ficiton to trend in the direction the players want. Here are some concrete examples, from epic tier 4e D&D I've [B]bolded[/B] the bits where players estabish credibiity; in the second quote that would mean bolding lots of it so for the sorcerer's plan I haven't bolded beyond the introduction to it): I think that these examples illustrates pretty clear the (2a), (2b) distinction I stated upthread: first establishing feasibility/credibility by way of table consensus; then framing the action and resolving it by way of "say 'yes' or roll the dice". In those posts there are two examples of rolling the dice: funnelling the souls across The Bridge That May Be Traversed But Once, and sealing the Abyss. There are more examples of "saying 'yes'": allowing the Thundercloud Tower to tear through the Demonwebs; allowing the previous successful Religion check to allow using the flow of souls to slow down the NPCs; allowing the Beacon to be permanentely expended in order to allow the rapid performance of a ritual; allowing Strech Spell to feed into the plan to seal the Abyss; allowing the chaos sorcerer to give of his essence to power his attempt to seal the Abyss. Two of those examples of saying "yes" trade on the system's resource econcomy (and so are a bit like, though obviously not identical to, spending a Fate point or a Storyteller Certificate): expending the Beacon, and spending healing surges and hit points for the buff to the check. Having a robust resource economy in a game supports effective GMing in my view, especially when the game has lots of moving parts as D&D tends to. In my view these examples of play illustrate a relative high degree of player agency in respect of the shared fiction. I think they show how that differs from what I have called "puzzle-solving" play. I also think they show an approach to RPGing that is quite different from OSR-ish/"delve"/dungeoncrawl play. Now the maths and resource economy of 4e D&D tend to be weighted in favour of player success, which is what helps make it a game of gonzo high-fantasy. [url=https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/burning-wheel-first-burning-wheel-session.736425/]Here[/url] is another example, from Burning Wheel, which involves failure: [indent]The rogue wizard, Jobe, had a relationship with his brother and rival. <snip> I had pulled out my old Greyhawk material and told them they were starting in the town of Hardby, half-way between the forest (where the assassin [Halika] had fled from) and the desert hills (where Jobe had been travelling), and so each came up with a belief around that: [I]I'm not leaving Hardby without gaining some magical item to use against my brother[/I] [was Jobe's.] <snip> I started things in the Hardby market: Jobe was looking at the wares of a peddler of trinkets and souvenirs, to see if there was anything there that might be magical or useful for enchanting for the anticipated confrontation with his brother. Given that the brother is possessed by a demon, he was looking for something angelic. The peddler pointed out an angel feather that he had for sale, brought to him from the Bright Desert. Jobe (who has, as another instinct, to always use Second Sight), used Aura Reading to study the feather for magical traits. The roll was a failure, and so he noticed that it was Resistant to Fire (potentially useful in confronting a Balrog) but also cursed. (Ancient History was involved somehow here too, maybe as a FoRK into Aura Reading (? I can't really remember), establishing something about an ancient battle between angels and demons in the desert.) My memory of the precise sequence of events is hazy, but in the context the peddler was able to insist on proceeding with the sale, demanding 3 drachmas (Ob 1 resource check). As Jobe started haggling a strange woman (Halika) approached him and offered to help him if he would buy her lunch. Between the two of them, the haggling roll was still a failure, and also the subsequent Resources check: so Jobe got his feather but spent his last 3 drachmas, and was taxed down to Resources 0. They did get some more information about the feather from the peddler, however - he bought it from a wild-eyed man with dishevelled beard and hair, who said that it had come from one of the tombs in the Bright Desert. Jobe, being unable to buy Halika any lunch, suggested he might be able to find some work for them instead.[/indent] Again there is no hint of RPG-as-puzzle. The player establishes the credibility of the peddler selling something angelic; of such a thing being useful in confronting a Balrog; and the credibility of knowing something from ancient history about such things as battels between angels and demons. But the action resolution fails, and so the feather is not as desirable as had been hoped, because it is cursed. [/QUOTE]
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