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Realistic Consequences vs Gameplay
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<blockquote data-quote="hawkeyefan" data-source="post: 8018531" data-attributes="member: 6785785"><p>I believe I was clear that the issue was about how 5E can leave it very unclear how what the DM describes translate into game mechanics that the players can reliably understand/predict/interact with. If that wasn’t clear prior, I hope it is now and we can discuss with this in mind going forward.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Two things here. First, why can’t the DM just give all the mechanical info to the players? The way you preface that idea with “unless” makes it sound like you think this typically shouldn’t be done. Why not? Or did I misunderstand what you’re saying?</p><p></p><p>Second, I never said that this can’t be a flaw in many games. Lots of games take major cues from D&D, and so this weak point will often carry through. But how severe it is for each game will vary; I think you’d likely agree with that, yes? If so, what I’m saying is that it’s a particularly significant weakness for D&D. It can be avoided and/or mitigated, but it’s there.</p><p></p><p>Look at my example from Blades in the Dark, where all of this is discussed between GM and player before the player has to commit his character to the action and make the roll. It’s possible something may not translate from fiction to mechanics in an entirely clear way, but it seems far less likely, doesn’t it? The player knows the character’s Position for the action, the strength of the Effect on a success, and the degree of consequence of failure. The specific consequences may be known or unknown, but their severity is clear. </p><p></p><p>Where do you think this system lends itself to the muddy fiction-mechanics relation? </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Sure it does. Because the players know that the dragon has an AC score. It’s a mechanic they can understand and rely on. It’s pervasive in the game. Whether a specific AC is given, or just a description of it being heavily armored, the players have some sense what that means. They know that it’s going to come down to their attack bonuses and spells that can inflict damage without an attack roll and other combat-oriented, player facing elements that the game makes crystal clear. Even if the AC is so high that it’s beyond their abilities to hit with a d20 roll except if they score a natural 20, which is always a success, they have an idea of their odds and how things work. </p><p></p><p>They also know that the DM isn’t simply going to decide “nah, your attacks have no chance to succeed here.” This is key. This will not happen in combat, barring either really poor GMing or a spectacularly fringe edge case. </p><p></p><p>In the social interaction with the Baron, nothing is so clearly defined as all that. The players may have some sense of using their Social skills to deal with him (Persuasion, Deception, Intimidation), but no real way of knowing which may be well suited, which may work, and which will be shot down out of hand by the DM. They don’t know what the equivalent to AC is in this scenario, or HP. The game lacks these elements. </p><p></p><p>Then, on top of that, the DM may simply decide at any point that something they’ve declared not only doesn’t succeed, but can have dire consequences. That unilateral ability for the DM to do so is a huge compromise to the idea of player agency.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="hawkeyefan, post: 8018531, member: 6785785"] I believe I was clear that the issue was about how 5E can leave it very unclear how what the DM describes translate into game mechanics that the players can reliably understand/predict/interact with. If that wasn’t clear prior, I hope it is now and we can discuss with this in mind going forward. Two things here. First, why can’t the DM just give all the mechanical info to the players? The way you preface that idea with “unless” makes it sound like you think this typically shouldn’t be done. Why not? Or did I misunderstand what you’re saying? Second, I never said that this can’t be a flaw in many games. Lots of games take major cues from D&D, and so this weak point will often carry through. But how severe it is for each game will vary; I think you’d likely agree with that, yes? If so, what I’m saying is that it’s a particularly significant weakness for D&D. It can be avoided and/or mitigated, but it’s there. Look at my example from Blades in the Dark, where all of this is discussed between GM and player before the player has to commit his character to the action and make the roll. It’s possible something may not translate from fiction to mechanics in an entirely clear way, but it seems far less likely, doesn’t it? The player knows the character’s Position for the action, the strength of the Effect on a success, and the degree of consequence of failure. The specific consequences may be known or unknown, but their severity is clear. Where do you think this system lends itself to the muddy fiction-mechanics relation? Sure it does. Because the players know that the dragon has an AC score. It’s a mechanic they can understand and rely on. It’s pervasive in the game. Whether a specific AC is given, or just a description of it being heavily armored, the players have some sense what that means. They know that it’s going to come down to their attack bonuses and spells that can inflict damage without an attack roll and other combat-oriented, player facing elements that the game makes crystal clear. Even if the AC is so high that it’s beyond their abilities to hit with a d20 roll except if they score a natural 20, which is always a success, they have an idea of their odds and how things work. They also know that the DM isn’t simply going to decide “nah, your attacks have no chance to succeed here.” This is key. This will not happen in combat, barring either really poor GMing or a spectacularly fringe edge case. In the social interaction with the Baron, nothing is so clearly defined as all that. The players may have some sense of using their Social skills to deal with him (Persuasion, Deception, Intimidation), but no real way of knowing which may be well suited, which may work, and which will be shot down out of hand by the DM. They don’t know what the equivalent to AC is in this scenario, or HP. The game lacks these elements. Then, on top of that, the DM may simply decide at any point that something they’ve declared not only doesn’t succeed, but can have dire consequences. That unilateral ability for the DM to do so is a huge compromise to the idea of player agency. [/QUOTE]
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