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Realistic Consequences vs Gameplay
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<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 8018572" data-attributes="member: 6696971"><p>But again, to go back to what I said prior, if something exogenous isn't imposing its will upon you (in this case the resolution mechanics) and making your conception of self subordinate to that power in this moment (as happens in real life)...and you're making an active choice to pantomime (or not) the subordination of self to that power...then how are you remotely inhabiting your PC?</p><p></p><p>This is an aspect of these conversations that get extremely difficult and entangled. It is because people claim to want (a) verisimilitude/immersion/PC habitation, (b) they want agency, and (c) they want coherent incentive structures (as you cite directly below, which I'll address in a moment). However, you've got all of the following in a moment where a PC could legitimately have their will (through exogenous forces - social pressures perhaps - interacting with endogenous forces - the endocrine system) become subordinate to another character through mundane interaction:</p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">complete autonomy (as in your second quoted bit) in this moment which must utterly defeat the actual realities of (a) and (b)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">an incentive structure that completely pushes back against even the pantomiming of becoming mundanely charmed/intimidated/mentally undone</li> </ul><p></p><p>This is what I was trying to get at in my prior post. If you're just pantomiming becoming mentally undone (because you want it it "feel like my character" vs what actually happens in real life where when you succumb to something external to your conception of self...that sure as hell isn't something you identify with!...it feels as if you're a stranger to yourself!)...how is that remotely immersive...its literally the opposite of what happens in real life? Further, you're completely discincentivized in doing so (which you cite as a problem directly below). You don't identify this as a system issue? </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I've GMed Fate somewhere around 6-10 times, so I'm quite familiar with the machinery and its context, holistically, in the game at large. Further still, I'm very familiar with the tech as it interfaces with other systems.</p><p></p><p>You're arguing for a misaligned incentive structure here. 2 things:</p><p></p><p>1) I would like you to address the incentive structure issue I cite directly above (which you don't cite as an issue...particularly how it is at tension with PC habitation/immersion/verisimilitude). I don't know how the two sit alongside each other.</p><p></p><p>2) With respect, I don't think you either have enough experience with Fate and/or games that have similar tech. To wit:</p><p></p><p>a) You're isolating one aspect of the incentive structure of Compels and the Fate Point Economy and claiming everything is downstream from that. Its not. The reality is, you have three other competing forces that can, and do, push back against that claim (thereby working back upstream toward some equilibrium). (1) Players have a conception of their character that they're interested in testing to possibly realize within the fiction. If you accept every Compel, you're significantly diminishing those prospects (likely to completion). (2) Players have an interest in interesting outcomes and an obligation to the table toward interesting story creation. This will absolutely push back toward accepting every Compel. (3) Players who accept every compel will get themselves into a ridiculous positive feedback loop of trouble...thereby knocking themselves out of scenes routinely...thereby actively limiting their impact on the trajectory of play overall and (1) and (2) above.</p><p></p><p>So, no, the incentive structures of the game aren't set up such that play isn't the product of this avalanche of "Compel-Acceptance" as you're forecasting it (not to mention the diminishing returns of "swimming in Fate Points" which is the paradigm you're creating here). Its not that way before play and its certainly not that way during play. If your limited play featured that, it had to have been a product of some serious misunderstanding of both the apex play priority of the system and the feedback loops of play by the table participants.</p><p></p><p>b) There are endless examples of other systems that have competing incentive structures (like the above) that yield a dynamic play experience (both in decision-points and in the fiction that emerges from gamestate changes). Players aren't constantly trying to fail in BW/TB and DW nor are they constantly trying to put d4 Traits/Relationships (et al) in their dice pools in Dogs nor are they constantly trying to make Action Rolls against Desperate Position in Blades because that is a significant portion of the xp > Advancement paradigm in those games. Success is important to both your conception of your PC and the trajectory of play. But this incentive structure tension creates a cognitive space for players (and attendant level of agency) that is filled with conflict and emotion. "Yeah, I'm going to bring my brother's death into this situation because it emboldens me...but it also makes me reckless as hell....eff it. For Brendon <pulls out Colt revolver>."</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 8018572, member: 6696971"] But again, to go back to what I said prior, if something exogenous isn't imposing its will upon you (in this case the resolution mechanics) and making your conception of self subordinate to that power in this moment (as happens in real life)...and you're making an active choice to pantomime (or not) the subordination of self to that power...then how are you remotely inhabiting your PC? This is an aspect of these conversations that get extremely difficult and entangled. It is because people claim to want (a) verisimilitude/immersion/PC habitation, (b) they want agency, and (c) they want coherent incentive structures (as you cite directly below, which I'll address in a moment). However, you've got all of the following in a moment where a PC could legitimately have their will (through exogenous forces - social pressures perhaps - interacting with endogenous forces - the endocrine system) become subordinate to another character through mundane interaction: [LIST] [*]complete autonomy (as in your second quoted bit) in this moment which must utterly defeat the actual realities of (a) and (b) [*]an incentive structure that completely pushes back against even the pantomiming of becoming mundanely charmed/intimidated/mentally undone [/LIST] This is what I was trying to get at in my prior post. If you're just pantomiming becoming mentally undone (because you want it it "feel like my character" vs what actually happens in real life where when you succumb to something external to your conception of self...that sure as hell isn't something you identify with!...it feels as if you're a stranger to yourself!)...how is that remotely immersive...its literally the opposite of what happens in real life? Further, you're completely discincentivized in doing so (which you cite as a problem directly below). You don't identify this as a system issue? I've GMed Fate somewhere around 6-10 times, so I'm quite familiar with the machinery and its context, holistically, in the game at large. Further still, I'm very familiar with the tech as it interfaces with other systems. You're arguing for a misaligned incentive structure here. 2 things: 1) I would like you to address the incentive structure issue I cite directly above (which you don't cite as an issue...particularly how it is at tension with PC habitation/immersion/verisimilitude). I don't know how the two sit alongside each other. 2) With respect, I don't think you either have enough experience with Fate and/or games that have similar tech. To wit: a) You're isolating one aspect of the incentive structure of Compels and the Fate Point Economy and claiming everything is downstream from that. Its not. The reality is, you have three other competing forces that can, and do, push back against that claim (thereby working back upstream toward some equilibrium). (1) Players have a conception of their character that they're interested in testing to possibly realize within the fiction. If you accept every Compel, you're significantly diminishing those prospects (likely to completion). (2) Players have an interest in interesting outcomes and an obligation to the table toward interesting story creation. This will absolutely push back toward accepting every Compel. (3) Players who accept every compel will get themselves into a ridiculous positive feedback loop of trouble...thereby knocking themselves out of scenes routinely...thereby actively limiting their impact on the trajectory of play overall and (1) and (2) above. So, no, the incentive structures of the game aren't set up such that play isn't the product of this avalanche of "Compel-Acceptance" as you're forecasting it (not to mention the diminishing returns of "swimming in Fate Points" which is the paradigm you're creating here). Its not that way before play and its certainly not that way during play. If your limited play featured that, it had to have been a product of some serious misunderstanding of both the apex play priority of the system and the feedback loops of play by the table participants. b) There are endless examples of other systems that have competing incentive structures (like the above) that yield a dynamic play experience (both in decision-points and in the fiction that emerges from gamestate changes). Players aren't constantly trying to fail in BW/TB and DW nor are they constantly trying to put d4 Traits/Relationships (et al) in their dice pools in Dogs nor are they constantly trying to make Action Rolls against Desperate Position in Blades because that is a significant portion of the xp > Advancement paradigm in those games. Success is important to both your conception of your PC and the trajectory of play. But this incentive structure tension creates a cognitive space for players (and attendant level of agency) that is filled with conflict and emotion. "Yeah, I'm going to bring my brother's death into this situation because it emboldens me...but it also makes me reckless as hell....eff it. For Brendon <pulls out Colt revolver>." [/QUOTE]
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