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General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
Realistic Consequences vs Gameplay
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<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 8022818" data-attributes="member: 6696971"><p>We agree!</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>We don't agree!</p><p></p><p>This makes the assumption that (a) a GM will have a tendency to be caught off guard and (b) the GM won't do their best contextual, creative, thematically coherent work in the moment. Seeing as how I've run conflicts numbering in the thousands where there was zero planning or prep for them and overwhelmingly they've been very successful (in terms of context, creativity, and thematic coherency) and rewarding, I disagree. And where they haven't been satisfactory to participants (including myself), I've learned from it, aspired to be better, and worked to get there.</p><p></p><p>Again, it takes humility, forgiveness (of self), awareness, and practice...and competence inevitably emerges from that crucible.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You and I have conversed a ton on these boards. I don't know why you're bringing pemerton up here. You have to be very familiar with the facts that (a) I'm exclusively a GM (and I'm neither self-loathing nor am I anti-GM) and (b) many of my laments and cautionary tales about prep (specifically when I've talked about Force in the past) is the very real potential seduction by your own creation (a seduction which surely scales with the time, effort, and level satisfaction derived from the process of prep). In my experience with a huge host of GMs (both in watching their games, in them confiding to me, and in online testimonials), its abundantly clear that there is a clear correlation between GM Force and high resolution metaplot/setting prep. Its human, you work hard on a thing...you devote your time and mental + emotional energy to a thing...of course you want to see it enter play (despite the trajectory of play and the gamestate's evolution telling you that something else should enter play in its stead)!</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This is a testimonial. I'm sure you feel vulnerable the less you prep Lanefan. Maybe its possible that you would always struggle with less prep or lower resolution prep or an alternative model of prep or no prep at all. However, I wonder, if you ran a game that demanded less/minimal prep (or prep of a certain type than you're used to) yet gave you tools for extremely fulfilling play nonetheless...lets say you ran Apocalypse World for me and a group of my players...and we forgave you your early lack of self-confidence and our collective stumbles...and you forgave yourself them...and we played...and played...and played...</p><p></p><p>I find it very hard to believe that you wouldn't become sufficinetly good at it to run a very rewarding game. I think you're selling yourself short and I think your mental model sells the prospects of this type of play short.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't hold strident objection to GM Force as a fundamental part of TTRPGing games at large and specific play agendas more precisely. Its CLEARLY a thing that is rampant in our hobby and the play agenda it supports is easily the most played.</p><p></p><p>My position is the same as its always been. Force enables a particular type of authority distribution and play paradigm while disabling another type of each. Some game systems and tables require Force because of this. Others are undone by Force. Consequently, we need to be crystal clear on how it affects play so it can be deployed in the systems/games that require it and ensure it does not enter into play in games that forbid it.</p><p></p><p>Simultaneously, GMs that think "its impossible to GM without Force" need to understand why that isn't true...and they need to familiarize themselves (firsthand) with the systems that forbid Force (particularly the "why" and the "how"). And, if anything - say, they reject those games, they can then become better at deploying Force in the games that they embrace!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 8022818, member: 6696971"] We agree! We don't agree! This makes the assumption that (a) a GM will have a tendency to be caught off guard and (b) the GM won't do their best contextual, creative, thematically coherent work in the moment. Seeing as how I've run conflicts numbering in the thousands where there was zero planning or prep for them and overwhelmingly they've been very successful (in terms of context, creativity, and thematic coherency) and rewarding, I disagree. And where they haven't been satisfactory to participants (including myself), I've learned from it, aspired to be better, and worked to get there. Again, it takes humility, forgiveness (of self), awareness, and practice...and competence inevitably emerges from that crucible. You and I have conversed a ton on these boards. I don't know why you're bringing pemerton up here. You have to be very familiar with the facts that (a) I'm exclusively a GM (and I'm neither self-loathing nor am I anti-GM) and (b) many of my laments and cautionary tales about prep (specifically when I've talked about Force in the past) is the very real potential seduction by your own creation (a seduction which surely scales with the time, effort, and level satisfaction derived from the process of prep). In my experience with a huge host of GMs (both in watching their games, in them confiding to me, and in online testimonials), its abundantly clear that there is a clear correlation between GM Force and high resolution metaplot/setting prep. Its human, you work hard on a thing...you devote your time and mental + emotional energy to a thing...of course you want to see it enter play (despite the trajectory of play and the gamestate's evolution telling you that something else should enter play in its stead)! This is a testimonial. I'm sure you feel vulnerable the less you prep Lanefan. Maybe its possible that you would always struggle with less prep or lower resolution prep or an alternative model of prep or no prep at all. However, I wonder, if you ran a game that demanded less/minimal prep (or prep of a certain type than you're used to) yet gave you tools for extremely fulfilling play nonetheless...lets say you ran Apocalypse World for me and a group of my players...and we forgave you your early lack of self-confidence and our collective stumbles...and you forgave yourself them...and we played...and played...and played... I find it very hard to believe that you wouldn't become sufficinetly good at it to run a very rewarding game. I think you're selling yourself short and I think your mental model sells the prospects of this type of play short. I don't hold strident objection to GM Force as a fundamental part of TTRPGing games at large and specific play agendas more precisely. Its CLEARLY a thing that is rampant in our hobby and the play agenda it supports is easily the most played. My position is the same as its always been. Force enables a particular type of authority distribution and play paradigm while disabling another type of each. Some game systems and tables require Force because of this. Others are undone by Force. Consequently, we need to be crystal clear on how it affects play so it can be deployed in the systems/games that require it and ensure it does not enter into play in games that forbid it. Simultaneously, GMs that think "its impossible to GM without Force" need to understand why that isn't true...and they need to familiarize themselves (firsthand) with the systems that forbid Force (particularly the "why" and the "how"). And, if anything - say, they reject those games, they can then become better at deploying Force in the games that they embrace! [/QUOTE]
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