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General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
Realistic Consequences vs Gameplay
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<blockquote data-quote="prabe" data-source="post: 8026334" data-attributes="member: 7016699"><p>I didn't mean any offense; there have been instances upthread where clarification from outside has seemed helpful, and I was endeavoring to help. You are free to be puzzled by [USER=29398]@Lanefan[/USER] and I will not try to explain y'all to each other further, but I hope you understand that I do comprehend that others play differently, and I think I even understand some of why (beyond mere matters of taste), and <strong>I am genuinely happy that others play differently than I do.</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Did you note that I said that changing the story directly doesn't feel like agency? That's because agency is over the character's actions and thoughts and responses and emotions. Authorship or narrative authority is about writing or re-writing the fiction more directly. Your character opening the box because you (and the character) expect to find the Crown of Revel inside is agency; your character opening the box and finding the Crown of Revel inside because you the player made a relevant check is re/writing the fiction to place the Crown of Revel inside the box--that's authorship/narrative authority. Please note: <strong>I'm not saying either way is wrong or bad.</strong> I have a preference, yes, but I'm not attempting to imply any judgment here.</p><p></p><p>Now, the character might--should, really--shape the story or world through their actions, and their actions should be the result of their responses to previous events. That's still not the same thing as authorship/narrative authority, though, because it's the character's actions and decisions that are changing the world in the fiction.</p><p></p><p>Yes, I have a preference for authorship/narrative authority to lie mostly in my head as the GM, but that's because I find it easier to keep the facts/stories/world straight if I made all (or at least most) of it. I find that as a GM the world gets murky and less coherent (for me, in my head) as more people author it. I'm probably most comfortable as a player with a similar distribution of narrative authority, probably for mostly-similar reasons (plus a belief that the players have mostly-complete authority over their characters) but I'm willing to step out of my comfort zone as a player if the situation is right for it.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I believe many of us were interpreting that outburst differently than that, and the state of the fiction sure did change after that remark, so there seems to at least be a case for agency. "Agency" doesn't mean always getting what you want. I believe it has to contain the possibility of making mistakes--such as perhaps insulting an overly-sensitive BurgerMaster. It's clear to me that you disagree with some or all of that, and I really don't care to re-argue it.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If we take the OP at his word that there was ample information made available to the characters/players about the BurgerMaster's hypersensitivity and general instability, and if one is open to the idea that "agency" includes the ability to make mistakes, then I don't see the incoherence here that you seem to. OTOH, I do think you've managed to describe Adventure Path style gaming pretty well: It's not a style of gaming that seems interested in character agency.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="prabe, post: 8026334, member: 7016699"] I didn't mean any offense; there have been instances upthread where clarification from outside has seemed helpful, and I was endeavoring to help. You are free to be puzzled by [USER=29398]@Lanefan[/USER] and I will not try to explain y'all to each other further, but I hope you understand that I do comprehend that others play differently, and I think I even understand some of why (beyond mere matters of taste), and [B]I am genuinely happy that others play differently than I do.[/B] Did you note that I said that changing the story directly doesn't feel like agency? That's because agency is over the character's actions and thoughts and responses and emotions. Authorship or narrative authority is about writing or re-writing the fiction more directly. Your character opening the box because you (and the character) expect to find the Crown of Revel inside is agency; your character opening the box and finding the Crown of Revel inside because you the player made a relevant check is re/writing the fiction to place the Crown of Revel inside the box--that's authorship/narrative authority. Please note: [B]I'm not saying either way is wrong or bad.[/B] I have a preference, yes, but I'm not attempting to imply any judgment here. Now, the character might--should, really--shape the story or world through their actions, and their actions should be the result of their responses to previous events. That's still not the same thing as authorship/narrative authority, though, because it's the character's actions and decisions that are changing the world in the fiction. Yes, I have a preference for authorship/narrative authority to lie mostly in my head as the GM, but that's because I find it easier to keep the facts/stories/world straight if I made all (or at least most) of it. I find that as a GM the world gets murky and less coherent (for me, in my head) as more people author it. I'm probably most comfortable as a player with a similar distribution of narrative authority, probably for mostly-similar reasons (plus a belief that the players have mostly-complete authority over their characters) but I'm willing to step out of my comfort zone as a player if the situation is right for it. I believe many of us were interpreting that outburst differently than that, and the state of the fiction sure did change after that remark, so there seems to at least be a case for agency. "Agency" doesn't mean always getting what you want. I believe it has to contain the possibility of making mistakes--such as perhaps insulting an overly-sensitive BurgerMaster. It's clear to me that you disagree with some or all of that, and I really don't care to re-argue it. If we take the OP at his word that there was ample information made available to the characters/players about the BurgerMaster's hypersensitivity and general instability, and if one is open to the idea that "agency" includes the ability to make mistakes, then I don't see the incoherence here that you seem to. OTOH, I do think you've managed to describe Adventure Path style gaming pretty well: It's not a style of gaming that seems interested in character agency. [/QUOTE]
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