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General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
Realistic Consequences vs Gameplay
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8026408" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>What control has the player exercised? The player has forced the GM to say something. All RPGing involves that - otherwise it would be monologue, not conversation. But the player had no control over what the GM said. That is why I say the player exercised no agency. In my post not far upthread I've explained in some detail how this contrasts with the ability of an AW player to force the GM to make constrained and binding choices about what s/he says next.</p><p></p><p>Here is a typical example of D&D play:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">GM: you see an orc - it's charging at you with its axe!</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Player: OK, I draw my sword and fight back!</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><dice are rolled as per the combat rules - the orc's hp number is reduced to zero, the PC's hp number remains above zero></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">GM: Good stuff, you've killed the orc. What now?</p><p></p><p>The player has re/written the fiction to include a dead orc. That is agency over the shared fiction.</p><p></p><p><em>As far as the process of play is concerned</em>, the Crown example is no different:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">GM: you find a box - it's about a foot square and 6" deep?</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Player: so big enough to hold the Crown of Revel?</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">GM: Yep!</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Player: OK, so I open it and look inside.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><dice are rolled as per the (at this point hypothetical) searching-for-stuff rules, and the player succeeds></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">GM: Cool, you open the box and see the Crown of Revel inside.</p><p></p><p>Identical degrees of agency in both cases.</p><p></p><p>Contrast:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">GM: you find a box - it's about a foot square and 6" deep?</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Player: so big enough to hold the Crown of Revel?</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">GM: Yep!</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Player: OK, so I open it and look inside.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><GM consults notes - they state that the box is empty></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">GM: Sorry, you open the box and there's nothing in it, certainly no crown.</p><p></p><p>And we could set up a parallel example of a combat:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">GM: you see an orc - it's charging at you with its axe!</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Player: OK, I draw my sword and fight back!</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><GM looks at notes, which record that this orc won't be beaten in melee but takes those it defeats prisoner></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">GM: Sorry, you're no match for the orc. It knocks you down with its axe and binds your hands and feet with cord. Now you're a prisoner of the orcs.</p><p></p><p>In both these examples, the player doesn't exercise agency over the content of the shared fiction. I think the second example would be pretty controversial at a D&D table - though there are example of it in canonical D&D material like the Slave Lords modules. The first is what you and [USER=29398]@Lanefan[/USER] are advocating for in respect of looking in boxes.</p><p></p><p>The two examples are stricly identical in degree of player agency over the shared fiction.</p><p></p><p>I don't understand why you use the word <em>agency</em> to describe your preferences as to <em>when you want the GM rather than the player to exercise agency</em>. It is very confusing.</p><p></p><p>If you said <em>When it comes to revelations about things and places I prefer that the GM exercise agency </em>then I would follow quite clearly. [USER=16586]@Campbell[/USER] has said a version of just this in a recent post not far upthread.</p><p></p><p>This is pretty clear. The bit that confuses me is when you say that the GM exercising this sort of control over the shared fiction also counts as an example of the player exercising control over the shared fiction.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 8026408, member: 42582"] What control has the player exercised? The player has forced the GM to say something. All RPGing involves that - otherwise it would be monologue, not conversation. But the player had no control over what the GM said. That is why I say the player exercised no agency. In my post not far upthread I've explained in some detail how this contrasts with the ability of an AW player to force the GM to make constrained and binding choices about what s/he says next. Here is a typical example of D&D play: [indent]GM: you see an orc - it's charging at you with its axe! Player: OK, I draw my sword and fight back! <dice are rolled as per the combat rules - the orc's hp number is reduced to zero, the PC's hp number remains above zero> GM: Good stuff, you've killed the orc. What now?[/indent] The player has re/written the fiction to include a dead orc. That is agency over the shared fiction. [I]As far as the process of play is concerned[/I], the Crown example is no different: [INDENT]GM: you find a box - it's about a foot square and 6" deep?[/INDENT] [INDENT]Player: so big enough to hold the Crown of Revel?[/INDENT] [INDENT]GM: Yep![/INDENT] [INDENT]Player: OK, so I open it and look inside.[/INDENT] [INDENT]<dice are rolled as per the (at this point hypothetical) searching-for-stuff rules, and the player succeeds>[/INDENT] [INDENT]GM: Cool, you open the box and see the Crown of Revel inside.[/INDENT] Identical degrees of agency in both cases. Contrast: [INDENT]GM: you find a box - it's about a foot square and 6" deep?[/INDENT] [INDENT]Player: so big enough to hold the Crown of Revel?[/INDENT] [INDENT]GM: Yep![/INDENT] [INDENT]Player: OK, so I open it and look inside.[/INDENT] [INDENT]<GM consults notes - they state that the box is empty>[/INDENT] [INDENT]GM: Sorry, you open the box and there's nothing in it, certainly no crown.[/INDENT] And we could set up a parallel example of a combat: [INDENT]GM: you see an orc - it's charging at you with its axe![/INDENT] [INDENT]Player: OK, I draw my sword and fight back![/INDENT] [INDENT]<GM looks at notes, which record that this orc won't be beaten in melee but takes those it defeats prisoner>[/INDENT] [INDENT]GM: Sorry, you're no match for the orc. It knocks you down with its axe and binds your hands and feet with cord. Now you're a prisoner of the orcs.[/INDENT] In both these examples, the player doesn't exercise agency over the content of the shared fiction. I think the second example would be pretty controversial at a D&D table - though there are example of it in canonical D&D material like the Slave Lords modules. The first is what you and [USER=29398]@Lanefan[/USER] are advocating for in respect of looking in boxes. The two examples are stricly identical in degree of player agency over the shared fiction. I don't understand why you use the word [I]agency[/I] to describe your preferences as to [I]when you want the GM rather than the player to exercise agency[/I]. It is very confusing. If you said [I]When it comes to revelations about things and places I prefer that the GM exercise agency [/I]then I would follow quite clearly. [USER=16586]@Campbell[/USER] has said a version of just this in a recent post not far upthread. This is pretty clear. The bit that confuses me is when you say that the GM exercising this sort of control over the shared fiction also counts as an example of the player exercising control over the shared fiction. [/QUOTE]
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