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Realistic Consequences vs Gameplay
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<blockquote data-quote="prabe" data-source="post: 8026524" data-attributes="member: 7016699"><p>Well, the player had his character insult the BurgerMaster. The BurgerMaster reacted by calling his guards. The state of the fiction changed. Obviously, the character altered the shape of the coming fiction by his actions. Might not have been the outcome he wanted, but oh comma well.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Actually, no. The player in the D&D example has re-written the present, through his character's actions. The player in the Crown example has re-written the past (somehow the Crown got into that box) outside of his character's actions. This seems like a pretty clear difference to me: The former is agency, the latter is narrative authority.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I think you're right that the second would be grounds for an argument at a D&D table--it looks like a combat, which the players expect to resolve like a combat.</p><p></p><p>I think the first might not generate argument, depending on the table. Depending on how important the Crown of Revel is, and whether it's a goal or a key (which aren't metaphors we've been using, but which I hope are clear) a DM might insist the PCs search the right box, or the right room, or the right house; I think a table might have sorted those expectations before going looking for the Crown of Revel; I think it'd be a good idea if they did.</p><p></p><p>No, neither case is allowing narrative authority. The first isn't robbing anyone of agency--they chose to come to this room and look in this box, they can look in other rooms and other boxes, they can try to figure out how they came to be wrong about finding the Crown in this box in this room; especially if they determine they've been led astray, the story might well go interesting places, and there'd be agency. The second case appears to be more of a problem, agency-wise, simply because it looks like a combat but apparently isn't going to resolve like one; it feels as though the GM has taken charge of the story, perhaps just for a moment.</p><p></p><p>Maybe these cases aren't so identical as you think.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't think I'm advocating for it as hard as you maybe think I am. It's my preference (though as I've said I'm flexible about needing to get the right box, room, or building) but I don't think I've said it's wrongbadfun or anything like that--I think I've been very careful not to, because I know attacking people's tastes and preferences can feel as though you're attacking their person, and I'm not trying to attack anyone.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I certainly prefer it as a GM--for reasons I think I've stated, of finding it easier to run if all the facts (or revelations, if you prefer) are coming from my own head.</p><p></p><p>I think I use the word agency because I understand it to mean control over character actions and decisions, not (to use your word) revelations. I think of revelations (and similar declarations) to be narrative authority.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So, first, I might have been unclear in trying to say that as a player, I prefer if the GM is at least mostly responsible for the world (declarations and revelations) so long as he's consistent about it. (It actually irritates me when the GM is inconsistent about these things, which might not surprise you). If that was the clarity problem, you can stop here.</p><p></p><p>If that wasn't the clarity problem, then perhaps I wasn't clear about players having complete authority over their characters. I mean, it's D&D so there are effects like charm and dominate, but outside of those (and they've come up a total of maybe three times in 75 sessions between two campaigns) I don't run the characters, and I don't take away the player's control (authority) over the characters, and I ask for backstories for the characters and work with the players on fitting those backstories into my world. I do not tell them what their characters feel, emotionally, and I do not lead them around by the nose to follow some grand story I have laid out for the campaign.</p><p></p><p>Is that clearer, or did I guess wrong about what you didn't understand?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="prabe, post: 8026524, member: 7016699"] Well, the player had his character insult the BurgerMaster. The BurgerMaster reacted by calling his guards. The state of the fiction changed. Obviously, the character altered the shape of the coming fiction by his actions. Might not have been the outcome he wanted, but oh comma well. Actually, no. The player in the D&D example has re-written the present, through his character's actions. The player in the Crown example has re-written the past (somehow the Crown got into that box) outside of his character's actions. This seems like a pretty clear difference to me: The former is agency, the latter is narrative authority. I think you're right that the second would be grounds for an argument at a D&D table--it looks like a combat, which the players expect to resolve like a combat. I think the first might not generate argument, depending on the table. Depending on how important the Crown of Revel is, and whether it's a goal or a key (which aren't metaphors we've been using, but which I hope are clear) a DM might insist the PCs search the right box, or the right room, or the right house; I think a table might have sorted those expectations before going looking for the Crown of Revel; I think it'd be a good idea if they did. No, neither case is allowing narrative authority. The first isn't robbing anyone of agency--they chose to come to this room and look in this box, they can look in other rooms and other boxes, they can try to figure out how they came to be wrong about finding the Crown in this box in this room; especially if they determine they've been led astray, the story might well go interesting places, and there'd be agency. The second case appears to be more of a problem, agency-wise, simply because it looks like a combat but apparently isn't going to resolve like one; it feels as though the GM has taken charge of the story, perhaps just for a moment. Maybe these cases aren't so identical as you think. I don't think I'm advocating for it as hard as you maybe think I am. It's my preference (though as I've said I'm flexible about needing to get the right box, room, or building) but I don't think I've said it's wrongbadfun or anything like that--I think I've been very careful not to, because I know attacking people's tastes and preferences can feel as though you're attacking their person, and I'm not trying to attack anyone. I certainly prefer it as a GM--for reasons I think I've stated, of finding it easier to run if all the facts (or revelations, if you prefer) are coming from my own head. I think I use the word agency because I understand it to mean control over character actions and decisions, not (to use your word) revelations. I think of revelations (and similar declarations) to be narrative authority. So, first, I might have been unclear in trying to say that as a player, I prefer if the GM is at least mostly responsible for the world (declarations and revelations) so long as he's consistent about it. (It actually irritates me when the GM is inconsistent about these things, which might not surprise you). If that was the clarity problem, you can stop here. If that wasn't the clarity problem, then perhaps I wasn't clear about players having complete authority over their characters. I mean, it's D&D so there are effects like charm and dominate, but outside of those (and they've come up a total of maybe three times in 75 sessions between two campaigns) I don't run the characters, and I don't take away the player's control (authority) over the characters, and I ask for backstories for the characters and work with the players on fitting those backstories into my world. I do not tell them what their characters feel, emotionally, and I do not lead them around by the nose to follow some grand story I have laid out for the campaign. Is that clearer, or did I guess wrong about what you didn't understand? [/QUOTE]
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