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General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
Realistic Consequences vs Gameplay
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<blockquote data-quote="prabe" data-source="post: 8027763" data-attributes="member: 7016699"><p>The player in AW knows the GM will make a choice but has no control over what the decision will be.</p><p></p><p>The player in 5E knows the GM will make a choice but has no control over what the decision will be.</p><p></p><p>I do not see a difference between the two conditions. I do not see a difference in agency.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, if I wanted to play the game and ignore the character I'd play something like Gloomhaven or Eldritch Horror or Pandemic (all of which I like, for what that's worth) where the "character" is just a bundle of abilities with a picture attached. That is neither how nor why I play TRPGs, though.</p><p></p><p>To be more responsive, at the same level of remove: The fiction changed as a result of the player's decision, which rounds to the player changing the fiction. Since the decision ended up being an action that the character takes, it works just as well to think of the character changing the fiction, since the action and the result are connected in the fiction.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>"Misdirect" seems to mean one of two things. It either means describe what you're doing in terms of the fiction (as in, having NPCs put PCs in different places, rather than saying "they separate you"--the principle is, IIRC "Make your move but never speak its name" or something close) or it means something more like narrative sleight-of-hand, where the connections between cause and effect, action and result, are muddied, to keep the players (and I suspect ideally the GM) guessing. The former is less about transparency than immersion; the latter is ... well, I don't entirely grasp what the point is, but I don't think it can be fairly be said to be about transparency.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Sure. Or however else a GM might be having the excrement hit the fan. Pretty standard stuff, then.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>We've been talking about TRPGs, yes? A form of play that focuses around emerging story? The fiction that emerges is a property of play and the entire point of the play. I'm surprised you can be so dismissive of it.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>How'd the characters get there? What'll they do next? Aren't the answers to those questions fictional content? Didn't the players/characters have input to those answers? Aren't the characters in the fiction trying to figure out what's going on in the fiction?</p><p></p><p>It can be played in any number of ways, all of which are fine and valid and really do make sense as design decisions--it makes as much sense to have the player narrate what's in the box as it does to have the GM do so--but they lead, I think, to different types of stories emerging.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>For the same reason that when I talk about "player agency" as "authority over the character" and "narrative authority" as "altering the fiction/facts of the world (including the possibility of changing facts outside of the character's control)" you read them through your preferred terminology. It's how I think about it.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And I think you think "content" here means "what's in the box" whereas I think "content" means "what the characters do." In the example of the Crown or Revel being/not being in the box, there's no way the character has any control of that, whether the Crown being in the box is decided by the GM, erm, deciding, or as the result of an action-resolution check (where a success allows the player to put the Crown in the box). I'm not inclined to deny that I find it easier to play if I'm not having to think so much outside my character, nor that as a GM I find it easier if the facts of the world (such as whether the Crown of Revel is in the box) are in my head as opposed to yet-undertermined, but I don't think I've been impervious to the idea that others might prefer it otherwise.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="prabe, post: 8027763, member: 7016699"] The player in AW knows the GM will make a choice but has no control over what the decision will be. The player in 5E knows the GM will make a choice but has no control over what the decision will be. I do not see a difference between the two conditions. I do not see a difference in agency. Well, if I wanted to play the game and ignore the character I'd play something like Gloomhaven or Eldritch Horror or Pandemic (all of which I like, for what that's worth) where the "character" is just a bundle of abilities with a picture attached. That is neither how nor why I play TRPGs, though. To be more responsive, at the same level of remove: The fiction changed as a result of the player's decision, which rounds to the player changing the fiction. Since the decision ended up being an action that the character takes, it works just as well to think of the character changing the fiction, since the action and the result are connected in the fiction. "Misdirect" seems to mean one of two things. It either means describe what you're doing in terms of the fiction (as in, having NPCs put PCs in different places, rather than saying "they separate you"--the principle is, IIRC "Make your move but never speak its name" or something close) or it means something more like narrative sleight-of-hand, where the connections between cause and effect, action and result, are muddied, to keep the players (and I suspect ideally the GM) guessing. The former is less about transparency than immersion; the latter is ... well, I don't entirely grasp what the point is, but I don't think it can be fairly be said to be about transparency. Sure. Or however else a GM might be having the excrement hit the fan. Pretty standard stuff, then. We've been talking about TRPGs, yes? A form of play that focuses around emerging story? The fiction that emerges is a property of play and the entire point of the play. I'm surprised you can be so dismissive of it. How'd the characters get there? What'll they do next? Aren't the answers to those questions fictional content? Didn't the players/characters have input to those answers? Aren't the characters in the fiction trying to figure out what's going on in the fiction? It can be played in any number of ways, all of which are fine and valid and really do make sense as design decisions--it makes as much sense to have the player narrate what's in the box as it does to have the GM do so--but they lead, I think, to different types of stories emerging. For the same reason that when I talk about "player agency" as "authority over the character" and "narrative authority" as "altering the fiction/facts of the world (including the possibility of changing facts outside of the character's control)" you read them through your preferred terminology. It's how I think about it. And I think you think "content" here means "what's in the box" whereas I think "content" means "what the characters do." In the example of the Crown or Revel being/not being in the box, there's no way the character has any control of that, whether the Crown being in the box is decided by the GM, erm, deciding, or as the result of an action-resolution check (where a success allows the player to put the Crown in the box). I'm not inclined to deny that I find it easier to play if I'm not having to think so much outside my character, nor that as a GM I find it easier if the facts of the world (such as whether the Crown of Revel is in the box) are in my head as opposed to yet-undertermined, but I don't think I've been impervious to the idea that others might prefer it otherwise. [/QUOTE]
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