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Message: <blockquote data-quote="chatdemon" data-source="post: 242723" data-attributes="member: 228">I don't understand where this judgement of Greyhawk comes from. Let's break it down:Baklunish Humanity: These guys have their roots in Arabian real world cultures, but were never really developed enough to see whether Gygax was going for the stereotypes. It is worth noting that most canonists, including iirc, Erik Mona, are adamant about not using strictly Arabian source material, such as the old Al-Qadim stuff, as background for the Baklunish. IMO, the work LGG coauthor Fred Weining has done with developing them gives them a unique, non-cliche feel.Flan Humanity - This culture seems to draw its roots from Native American and Celtic sources, but they are also creditted with spawning mysterious ancient kingdoms, which were partly responsible for villains such as Vecna. They obviously swerved away from the "Native American/Celtic = tree hugging peaceful goody goody sissies" here.Oeridian Humanity = Warlike nomads with roots probably derived from both Mongol and Germanic civilizations. Again, not very well developed, but they show a marked habit of deciding to peacefully mingle with their peers when that course of action was called for, which isn't exactly cliche behavior from the stereotypical warlike 'barbarian' cultures of real world earth.Rhennee Humanity = Gypsies, but with a twist. They live on riverboats and ply the waters of the central Flannaess. Probably not a unique idea, but defintely not cliche for its time. They do, unfortunately have the gypsy cliche of being untrustworthy thieves and liars, but IMO this is once again due to the lack of any real in depth treatment of them in the canon material.Suel Humanity = The roots of this race is hard to pinpoint. Moorcock's Melniboneans are the usual suspect.  The common 'corrupt empire of wizards' cliche is used here, but doesn't represent the whole of the culture, and IMO was not cliche 25 years ago when Gygax created them.Elves, sadly, do follow a Tolkien-esque cliche, haughty, arrogant and aloof. But it is certainly worth noting that in the original, Gygax material, the elves were never said to be in any decline or retreat from the world. They lived in their own nations, with handfulls scattered around the rest of the Flanaess, but I never got the impression they were a dying race, which is the most common, and IMO most unimaginative cliche out there. Later authors such as Carl Sargent and Roger Moore did start aluding to this garbage, and IMO the settings integrity suffered for it.Dwarves, same thing, aloof and sort of mysterious, and sheltered away in their mountain fastnesses, but never said to be in decline or dying. This basically stands in current canon, Dwarves aren't common in the Flanaess, but I for one get the feeling that their may be legendary dwarven realms in the unexplored parts of Oerth.Halflings and Gnomes were never detailed much, so it's hard to tell. Halflings in the current rules are split between the Tolkien and Dragonlance cliches, and Gnomes, unfortunately, are falling into Dragonlance cliches as well, but IMO this is 3e's fault, not Greyhawk's. The LGG authors, having little canon source material to work with, had to work within the framework of 3e's ideas about these races.</blockquote>

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