Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="Skallgrim" data-source="post: 4569008" data-attributes="member: 79271">Well, people have just tried to answer this for you, but you have now excluded the "good DM" from the discussion.  The rules don't expressly forbid you from throwing Orcus at 1st level PCs either.  The rules give you guidelines, reasons why those guidelines exist, and suggestions on how to use them. Does this mean there is a fault in the rules for encounters.If "a good DM can always compensate for bad rules" is how you view the rules, then you have already assumed that the rules are bad.  We can't argue with you, since you've assumed your conclusion as part of your premise.Many of us think that the extended rest rules aren't "bad", and that a "good DM" can simply make creative use of them.  If we are forced, by your discussion rules, to exclude the behavior of "good DMs" from the discussion, then only average and below average DM behavior can be considered.  I don't know of a single game system which makes good DMs out of average ones, or average DMs out of bad ones.  You want to consider only the cases where the "good DM" does not apply, and I would argue, those cases, by definition, aren't going to show you ANYTHING that the system does particularly well, just like you aren't going to find many examples of good writing when you exclude all writing from "good writers".Trying to answer more specificially, the things you directly reject as answers (time pressure and milestones) are the things which discourage you from taking extended rests.  If you exclude the very ideas put in the system which discourage extended rests, then, by definition, you will find no reason not to take extended rests.Milestones, to my mind, and that of my players, are not insignificant.  Extra action points are very useful, unless you choose (against DMG advice, I would add) to have every single encounter be of the same level of difficulty.  If you deliberately ignore the advice of the game designers, and have each encounter be equally easy, the action points will not be needed.  If you deliberately ignore their advice and have every encounter be equally hard (and also ignore their advice about treating very hard encounters as two encounters), then there will not be enough action points for the PCs to use.  If, on the other hand, you have the occasionally easy encounter, with more average encounters, and some hard ones, the PCs will be able to "bank" action points in easy encounters (and average ones played cleverly) to spend them in hard encounters.Furthermore, the milestones accumulate daily uses of magic items.  If you take one encounter (and use a daily item), then an extended rest, you start again with ONE daily magic item usage.  If, on the other hand, you plow through 4 encounters, without using any daily magic item uses, your "big" fifth encounter can see you using three daily magic item powers.  Those powers are useful, and situational.  It may be that several encounters need none, while another encounter can really use multiple ones.  Being able to release daily powers together, rather than just one per encounter, can often be very helpful.  In addition, many adventures are structured so that PCs have some idea of the goal of the encounter.  If the PCs know that they have to stop the evil wizard, they are even more likely to conserve those daily powers for the "final confrontation", rather than just doling them out one encounter and resting.Finally, on the topic of "time pressure".  This isn't a concept that is only available to "good DMs".  It's written into the system; it's discussed in the DMG; it's mentioned in every prewritten adventure I've read for 4th (which is all of them but the FR one).  The system assumes, as a base, underlying mechanic, that the DM doesn't treat the encounters as static and unconnected, unless they are "in game" static and unconnected (like a room with a trap).  The game gives you "patrol groups" (to interrupt rests), and discusses what the enemies might do if they are aware of an attack (and moving quickly gives you a chance to avoid that).  The tactics blocks on encounters will often tell you where the enemies might scout around in, or pursue you beyond.  The books often tell you guard movements, shift changes, or wandering monster encounters.  Then, the adventures also often tell you about places the PCs might choose for extended rests (this area is relatively safe; this area is accessed once per day). If you deliberately ignore all of the intentionally included information about putting time pressure on PCs, and deliberately ignore all of the included information about interrupting extended rests, why, yes, there does seem to be no reason not to take extended rests.So, is your objection to the existence of powers which cannot be used in each encounter, or to the mechanism of recovering powers which are not intended to be used in every encounter?I can think of several ways you might do this other than a "daily" power which refreshes after each extended rest:Powers which recover after a certain number of hours, regardless of rest (which would lead to the PCs simply waiting around until they refreshed, but not "taking an extended rest".Powers which would recharge on a recharge roll after the encounter.  However, in this system, you'd still have to allocate some amount of time between recharge rolls (and PCs could just wait multiple time periods until everybody made their roll), or you would give one roll after each encounter, which might massively punish one person with bad rolls, or massively reward someone else with good rolls.Powers which would recharge with specific components/activities.  This would be a big headache (you need holy water to recharge this power, and you are out.  You, on the other hand, need mistletoe to recharge this one, and you have a bunch, so you can use it after each encounter.)There are probably a metric crap-ton of other recharge systems which someone could think up.  However, the one 'recharge' system they have come up with for daily powers is one that closely mimics a real-life behavior:  going to bed!  Given a choice between a system which has some other mechanism for allowing a power to be used basically "once per day", or using a system that closely maps onto the "real world" mechanic of "I'm tired.  Let's stop and sleep.", I'll pick the one that connects to a real life mechanic.On the other hand, is your problem with the whole idea of "once per day" powers?  Which is fine, but what do you want to replace them with?  How often do you envision "not every encounter" powers being used?  More often than once per day?  Less often than once per day?  Every 4 encounters?  I think that Wizards kept the "adventuring day" because it was a game concept that closely tracked with a real life one (yesterday, today, tomorrow).  However, if you replace it, what do you replace it with?  If the PCs each get one "wow" power at the start of a session, and one more "wow" power usage after every 2 encounters, then what is to stop those encounters from being separated by weeks, or months.  First fight of the session is in February, against the ice wolves, and you use your wow power.  Next fight is in March against the Insane Rabbits, and you have no wow power.  Then in July, you fight the Four, and you have another wow power to use.  Wizards picked a time division which we are naturally conversant with.</blockquote>

Verification