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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Abstruse" data-source="post: 5938858" data-attributes="member: 6669048">Actually, this entire discussion is about where to draw the line, in a different context at least. What should and should not be a class. Like I said, there's over 100 different classes for D&D/d20 out there. You could make arguments for each and every one to be a class in Next. You could almost do a find/replace in this thread with "paladin"/"samurai" and "cleric"/"fighter" and have the exact same debate. Or rogue/pirate or rogue/ninja or cleric/invoker or wizard/warlock or on and on and on. At some point, you have to draw the line between what is a class and what is just a build using other classes/themes/backgrounds.For me, the line between what should and shouldn't be a class is being able to have enough diversity to support multiple build types without changing what that core class is. Personally, I don't think paladin supports it. Neither does ranger, assassin, or avenger.Am I upset that paladin is a class in 1st-4th editions? No. In each iteration, they work as designed. In 4e they nailed it perfectly IMO. And if WotC can come up with a design that also works, I will be satisfied. I still probably won't like the class, but it won't bother me. I've stated the two specific reasons I can't see a paladin working as a class. It's not unique enough compared to the cleric and it's not diverse enough to allow for the polytheistic system of pretty much every D&D game world.The specific reason I don't want paladins in the core game and my hatred of bloat is that I hate being forced to buy things I don't need. I hated spending $30 for the Monster Vault because all I wanted was the book of monsters and had to spend an extra $10 to get a crappy adventure, a poster map I'll never use, and a bunch of tokens when I've already got a huge collection of D&D Miniatures. I hated buying the DMG for 4e just for a couple of rules and tables when probably 3/4 of the book was utterly useless to me.If this game is going to be modular, I want it to be modular in what I pay for. I want to be able to buy the core rules with the 4 iconic classes leveled through to 20 with enough themes and backgrounds to create a lot of variety. I want the iconic races (human, elf, dwarf, halfling). I want enough rules to run the game and maybe tactical grid combat. I want a list of monsters, magic items, and traps. That's it. Everything else, throw in sourcebooks and I can buy them or not as I like. If you want, chop off the last 10 levels and put it in a red box with a dragon on the cover and a copy of the (updated post-playtest) Caves of Chaos adventure and I'll be a very, very happy boy.Make me buy a 575 page tome that gives me Popeye arms when I'm constantly passing the damn thing around the game table all session long like Pathfinder and I'm going to be unhappy.</blockquote>

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