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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Abstruse" data-source="post: 5939411" data-attributes="member: 6669048">They may not need to, but they are. They've stated that they're talking about which classes work better as a stand-alone class and which work better as a theme to place on an existing class. They specifically stated the avenger as one of those they're going to do as a theme. That's why this discussion needs to take place. Sure maybe sometime in 2019 they'll put out the Divine Class Options IV book and have an avenger class, but that's 5-6 years into the edition (depending on whose estimates you listen to on Next's release).Wizards of the Coast are the ones drawing a line. Not specific DMs (as they're always going to draw lines to suit their campaign), but the publisher themselves. If they're going to decide which previous edition classes will be classes and which will be themes, we really need to discuss this so that they have more data as to what the fans want.Personally, I'm fine with the avenger being a theme. It seems to fit better with the design structure they've laid out. Put the avenger theme on a rogue and you've got that chaser build avenger. Put it on a fighter and you've got that stand-your-ground build avenger. Put it on a cleric and it's that help-everyone-else-beat-the-tar-out-of-it avenger. It makes sense.Same with the assassin (something they mentioned at DDXP as being a class rather than a theme). It works better as a theme than it does as a class. I can get the same versatility of archetypes in an assassin theme as I could from an assassin class, and it would probably work better. And honestly, I could see it working even better as a background than a theme possibly depending on the full list of themes presented.And third party publishers are not the solution. If you've ever run a 3.x or PF game where you let players take those third party feats or classes, you've seen first-hand how broken that gets in a hurry. I had a player who took a third party swashbuckler class with some other third party class with a weapon out of Dragon magazine and some third-party feat who did 1d8 + Str Mod + Dex Mod + Chr Mod + Int Mod damage and was adding all those modifiers to his BAB for attacks (ending up with a standard attack that was +11 to hit and did 1d8+9 damage with an additional +2 to hit and +3d6 damage if flanking) at fourth level. At a point in the game when a raging barbarian with a greataxe is +9 and 1d12+7. And he then said to me, "Yeah, I could've gotten a few more, but I didn't want to be a munchkin."This discussion needs to happen and this is the time to have it. The ranger, paladin, and assassin are the perfect classes to have it with. So where does that line between a class and a theme or build go?</blockquote>

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