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<blockquote data-quote="Skead" data-source="post: 4044319" data-attributes="member: 58884">(this was originally posted on the wizards of the coast d&amp;d forums, but I believe it can equally benefit from here aswell.Introduction: Hi, my name is Dean and I've been playing D&amp;D casually for a few years now. I've also been playing MMORPG's, and have always fancied the idea of Bards. It seems in most games with bards, they seem to do what other classes can do (Damage, Crowd Control, Debuff, Buff, Heal, etc) but only differently. But in D&amp;D it doesn't seem to be that way, which leads me to...Current Bard Status:Not pretty, I know a lot of you are pretty unhappy with which way the Bard class has headed. I believe they tried to truly make a &quot;Jack of all Trades, but Master of None&quot; they just threw in too many things, and to compensate they had to make it so it was never as powerful as the &quot;main class&quot;My Proposal?: Drop the spells is my big suggestion, and in place give us songs that are truly unique and interesting. I like the &quot;Songs per Day&quot; idea or perhaps even per encounter. Any spells we would have gotten should be an available song, with some drawbacks and benefits.My suggestion would be pretty similar to what they have now for spells, but just different amounts.[code]&nbsp; &nbsp; Songs KnownLevel&nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 1st&nbsp; &nbsp; 2nd&nbsp; &nbsp; 3rd&nbsp; &nbsp; 4th&nbsp; &nbsp; 5th&nbsp; &nbsp; 6th1st&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; —&nbsp; &nbsp; —&nbsp; &nbsp; —&nbsp; &nbsp; —&nbsp; &nbsp; —&nbsp; &nbsp; —2nd&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; —&nbsp; &nbsp; —&nbsp; &nbsp; —&nbsp; &nbsp; —&nbsp; &nbsp; —3rd&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; —&nbsp; &nbsp; —&nbsp; &nbsp; —&nbsp; &nbsp; —&nbsp; &nbsp; —4th&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; —&nbsp; &nbsp; —&nbsp; &nbsp; —&nbsp; &nbsp; —5th&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; —&nbsp; &nbsp; —&nbsp; &nbsp; —&nbsp; &nbsp; —6th&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; —&nbsp; &nbsp; —&nbsp; &nbsp; —&nbsp; &nbsp; —7th&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; —&nbsp; &nbsp; —&nbsp; &nbsp; —8th&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; —&nbsp; &nbsp; —&nbsp; &nbsp; —9th&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; —&nbsp; &nbsp; —&nbsp; &nbsp; —10th&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; —&nbsp; &nbsp; —11th&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; —&nbsp; &nbsp; —12th&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; —&nbsp; &nbsp; —13th&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; —14th&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; —15th&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; —16th&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X17th&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X18th&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X19th&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X20th&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X&nbsp; &nbsp; X[/code]In addition, not everyone would like to see this so I would need to get a feel on the community base for this one, but I think it would be cool to do most of our combat with our instruments, now I'm not talking about &quot;Cheerleading Mode&quot; or anything, I mean being able to play a wicked riff (or melody, etc) that actually evoke the effect. Being able to hit &quot;X&quot; for damage, or debuffing him... you get the idea.Now you may think this is unfair because being able to attack like a rogue and still singing spell-like abilities, I think it'd be one or the other. In combat, I would find it very hard to sing and play, thus interruptions / attacks on the Bard would be devastating.I think this style is an advantage, being able to fill a lot of roles, VERY WELL, but the drawback, I think would be checks obviously. You need to roll a preform check to see if you even do well, and if you don't there would be negative effects on your party or even positive effects on your enemies (maybe both). Imagine a Bard trying to gather up courage for his party and sounding like he's playing Through the Fire and the Flames blind folded, and opposite hand, the party would definitely be disheartened and the enemy would see this as a sign of weakness.So what am I going on about?: I need your help, I need song ideas, how to balance a class for later levels in d&amp;d, because I haven't played a high level campaign...We'll start from here:Alignment: Any non-lawfulHit Die: d6Class SkillsThe bard’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Speak Language (n/a), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Magic Device (Cha).Skill Points at 1st Level: (6 + Int modifier) x 4.Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 8 + Int modifier.[code]Level&nbsp; BAB&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Fort&nbsp; Ref&nbsp; Will&nbsp; Special1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +0&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; +0&nbsp; &nbsp; +2&nbsp;&nbsp; +2&nbsp; &nbsp; Bardic Music, Bardic Knowledge2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; +0&nbsp; &nbsp; +3&nbsp;&nbsp; +3&nbsp; &nbsp; 3&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; +1&nbsp; &nbsp; +3&nbsp;&nbsp; +3&nbsp; &nbsp; 4&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +3&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; +1&nbsp; &nbsp; +4&nbsp;&nbsp; +4&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 5&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +3&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; +1&nbsp; &nbsp; +4&nbsp;&nbsp; +4&nbsp;&nbsp; 6&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +4&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; +2&nbsp; &nbsp; +5&nbsp;&nbsp; +5&nbsp; &nbsp; Twist Song 2*7&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +5&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; +2&nbsp; &nbsp; +5&nbsp;&nbsp; +5&nbsp; &nbsp; 8&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +6/+1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +2&nbsp; &nbsp; +6&nbsp;&nbsp; +6&nbsp; &nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +6/+1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +3&nbsp; &nbsp; +6&nbsp;&nbsp; +6&nbsp; &nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; +7/+2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +3&nbsp; &nbsp; +7&nbsp;&nbsp; +7&nbsp; &nbsp; 11&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; +8/+3&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +3&nbsp; &nbsp; +7&nbsp;&nbsp; +7&nbsp; &nbsp; 12&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; +9/+4&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +4&nbsp; &nbsp; +8&nbsp;&nbsp; +8&nbsp; &nbsp; Twist Song 3*13&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; +9/+4&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +4&nbsp; &nbsp; +8&nbsp;&nbsp; +8&nbsp; &nbsp; 14&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; +10/+5&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; +4&nbsp; &nbsp; +9&nbsp;&nbsp; +9&nbsp; &nbsp; 15&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; +11/+6/+1&nbsp; +5&nbsp; &nbsp; +9&nbsp;&nbsp; +9&nbsp; &nbsp; 16&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; +12/+7/+2&nbsp; +5&nbsp; &nbsp; +10&nbsp; +10&nbsp; 17&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; +12/+7/+2&nbsp; +5&nbsp; &nbsp; +10&nbsp; +10&nbsp;&nbsp; 18&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; +13/+8/+3&nbsp; +6&nbsp; &nbsp; +11&nbsp; +11&nbsp;&nbsp; Twist Song 4*19&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; +14/+9/+4&nbsp; +6&nbsp; &nbsp; +11&nbsp; +11&nbsp;&nbsp; 20&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; +15/+10/+5 +6&nbsp; &nbsp; +12&nbsp; +12[/code]* The bard is able to simontanously sing multiple songs, this requires a concentration check in addition to a preform check. A bad perform check could possibly throw off the Bard to any other songs he may be singing and may require a re-roll of preform check with a -X to the check.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Skead, post: 4044319, member: 58884"] (this was originally posted on the wizards of the coast d&d forums, but I believe it can equally benefit from here aswell. Introduction: Hi, my name is Dean and I've been playing D&D casually for a few years now. I've also been playing MMORPG's, and have always fancied the idea of Bards. It seems in most games with bards, they seem to do what other classes can do (Damage, Crowd Control, Debuff, Buff, Heal, etc) but only differently. But in D&D it doesn't seem to be that way, which leads me to... Current Bard Status: Not pretty, I know a lot of you are pretty unhappy with which way the Bard class has headed. I believe they tried to truly make a "Jack of all Trades, but Master of None" they just threw in too many things, and to compensate they had to make it so it was never as powerful as the "main class" My Proposal?: Drop the spells is my big suggestion, and in place give us songs that are truly unique and interesting. I like the "Songs per Day" idea or perhaps even per encounter. Any spells we would have gotten should be an available song, with some drawbacks and benefits. My suggestion would be pretty similar to what they have now for spells, but just different amounts. [code] Songs Known Level 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 1st X — — — — — — 2nd X X — — — — — 3rd X X — — — — — 4th X X X — — — — 5th X X X — — — — 6th X X X — — — — 7th X X X X — — — 8th X X X X — — — 9th X X X X — — — 10th X X X X X — — 11th X X X X X — — 12th X X X X X — — 13th X X X X X X — 14th X X X X X X — 15th X X X X X X — 16th X X X X X X X 17th X X X X X X X 18th X X X X X X X 19th X X X X X X X 20th X X X X X X X [/code] In addition, not everyone would like to see this so I would need to get a feel on the community base for this one, but I think it would be cool to do most of our combat with our instruments, now I'm not talking about "Cheerleading Mode" or anything, I mean being able to play a wicked riff (or melody, etc) that actually evoke the effect. Being able to hit "X" for damage, or debuffing him... you get the idea. Now you may think this is unfair because being able to attack like a rogue and still singing spell-like abilities, I think it'd be one or the other. In combat, I would find it very hard to sing and play, thus interruptions / attacks on the Bard would be devastating. I think this style is an advantage, being able to fill a lot of roles, VERY WELL, but the drawback, I think would be checks obviously. You need to roll a preform check to see if you even do well, and if you don't there would be negative effects on your party or even positive effects on your enemies (maybe both). Imagine a Bard trying to gather up courage for his party and sounding like he's playing Through the Fire and the Flames blind folded, and opposite hand, the party would definitely be disheartened and the enemy would see this as a sign of weakness. So what am I going on about?: I need your help, I need song ideas, how to balance a class for later levels in d&d, because I haven't played a high level campaign... We'll start from here: Alignment: Any non-lawful Hit Die: d6 Class Skills The bard’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Speak Language (n/a), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Magic Device (Cha). Skill Points at 1st Level: (6 + Int modifier) x 4. Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 8 + Int modifier. [code] Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special 1 +0 +0 +2 +2 Bardic Music, Bardic Knowledge 2 +1 +0 +3 +3 3 +2 +1 +3 +3 4 +3 +1 +4 +4 5 +3 +1 +4 +4 6 +4 +2 +5 +5 Twist Song 2* 7 +5 +2 +5 +5 8 +6/+1 +2 +6 +6 9 +6/+1 +3 +6 +6 10 +7/+2 +3 +7 +7 11 +8/+3 +3 +7 +7 12 +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 Twist Song 3* 13 +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 14 +10/+5 +4 +9 +9 15 +11/+6/+1 +5 +9 +9 16 +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 17 +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 18 +13/+8/+3 +6 +11 +11 Twist Song 4* 19 +14/+9/+4 +6 +11 +11 20 +15/+10/+5 +6 +12 +12 [/code] * The bard is able to simontanously sing multiple songs, this requires a concentration check in addition to a preform check. A bad perform check could possibly throw off the Bard to any other songs he may be singing and may require a re-roll of preform check with a -X to the check. [/QUOTE]

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