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<blockquote data-quote="SheepLord" data-source="post: 181906" data-attributes="member: 2234">By bitbug (sorry haven't figured the Quote thing out yet):&quot;Do you really think that an SM III monster is going to end up doing 35 damage (average of 10th level fireball) against the average opponents of a 10th level party? I don't.&quot;You don't eh?&nbsp; Well bitbug, let's fix your misconceptions of Fireball.&nbsp; In doing this, I'm not proving that Summon Monster is better, but that it is balanced with Fireball in all ways.35 is the average damage ROLLED from a Fireball cast by a 10th level wizard.&nbsp; It is not the damage which the characters will take.&nbsp; By 10th level some of the characters could have spell resistance or a type of fire resistance.&nbsp; Either from an item, or temporary from a spell.&nbsp; I haven't even mentioned saves, high dex, Lightning Reflexes, Evasion, or Imp. Evasion.&nbsp; Suddenly that 35 damage Fireball becomes alot less scary.&nbsp; Even if the characters fail their saves and cannot ignore the damage, the fighter which probably didn't duck in time has an average of around 60 hit points, and that's -without- any con bonuses.All of those things: the saves, the resistances, evasion, etc. are all bypassed by Summon Monster.&nbsp; SM -does- have to worry about high character armour class and attack bonuses because they are creatures which need to hit and which can be hit.&quot;If you have to have somebody else around to justify how good a spell is (e.g. flanking) that spell is seriously underpowered.&quot;You have to have somebody to cast Fireball at or it's basically useless; Summoned Monsters can still be damned handy without enemies for them to fight.Charm Person is only justified by having somebody else around.With Summon spells the caster (and the summoned creature) can benefit from the flanking help since the caster probably has a lower BAB.&nbsp; Flanking is a major, planned benefit from this spell, not some kind of lamely minor perk.Any Wizard by themselves casting Fireball to save themselves is probably already dead.Each spell has a niche to fill.&nbsp; Just because some players cannot figure out the niche does not make the spell bad or underpowered.&nbsp; Fireball has it's niche, Summon Monster has it's niche.&nbsp; Pick which best fits your style.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="SheepLord, post: 181906, member: 2234"] By bitbug (sorry haven't figured the Quote thing out yet): "Do you really think that an SM III monster is going to end up doing 35 damage (average of 10th level fireball) against the average opponents of a 10th level party? I don't." You don't eh? Well bitbug, let's fix your misconceptions of Fireball. In doing this, I'm not proving that Summon Monster is better, but that it is balanced with Fireball in all ways. 35 is the average damage ROLLED from a Fireball cast by a 10th level wizard. It is not the damage which the characters will take. By 10th level some of the characters could have spell resistance or a type of fire resistance. Either from an item, or temporary from a spell. I haven't even mentioned saves, high dex, Lightning Reflexes, Evasion, or Imp. Evasion. Suddenly that 35 damage Fireball becomes alot less scary. Even if the characters fail their saves and cannot ignore the damage, the fighter which probably didn't duck in time has an average of around 60 hit points, and that's -without- any con bonuses. All of those things: the saves, the resistances, evasion, etc. are all bypassed by Summon Monster. SM -does- have to worry about high character armour class and attack bonuses because they are creatures which need to hit and which can be hit. "If you have to have somebody else around to justify how good a spell is (e.g. flanking) that spell is seriously underpowered." You have to have somebody to cast Fireball at or it's basically useless; Summoned Monsters can still be damned handy without enemies for them to fight. Charm Person is only justified by having somebody else around. With Summon spells the caster (and the summoned creature) can benefit from the flanking help since the caster probably has a lower BAB. Flanking is a major, planned benefit from this spell, not some kind of lamely minor perk. Any Wizard by themselves casting Fireball to save themselves is probably already dead. Each spell has a niche to fill. Just because some players cannot figure out the niche does not make the spell bad or underpowered. Fireball has it's niche, Summon Monster has it's niche. Pick which best fits your style. [/QUOTE]

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