Rebuke & Loss of Class Abilities

[Celebrim]

Lets say you have the power to Rebuke Undead. In the event of temporary loss of class abilities due to unintentional violation of class contraints, would you generally agree that any Undead which were controlled as a result of a successful prior Rebukes would revert to being uncontrolled?

In general, would any spells with ongoing duration immediately cease to function or would they continue to function normally?

 

[Grogg of the North]

I think I would say that any undead being controlled through rebuking are set free. If I was being generous (probably not) I'd give the undead a save to break free.

For spells with on going duration, I'd let them run until they expire. Unless it was some sort of Load-Bearing Boss spell. When you play, if a caster dies do all their spells disappear? For instance, if a wizard dies, does his Wall of Ice go too?

 

[Celebrim]

When you play, if a caster dies do all their spells disappear? For instance, if a wizard dies, does his Wall of Ice go too?

I'm not sure.

In general, I'd say that the absence of a rule tends to favor the interpretation that the spell effect continues.

But that same guideline would tend to indicate that the undead also remained under the control of the now dead rebuker. That is to say, they would continue to do as they would when last ordered, and would pick up where they left off if the caster returned to life without need for further rebuke checks.

 

[Rath the Brown]

When you play, if a caster dies do all their spells disappear? For instance, if a wizard dies, does his Wall of Ice go too?

Since only spells that are marked as dismissible are able to be canceled by the caster, then all ongoing spells would remain for their duration after the wizard's death, barring spells requiring concentration.

(D) Dismissible

If the Duration line ends with "(D)," you can dismiss the spell at will. You must be within range of the spell’s effect and must speak words of dismissal, which are usually a modified form of the spell’s verbal component. If the spell has no verbal component, you can dismiss the effect with a gesture. Dismissing a spell is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

A spell that depends on concentration is dismissible by its very nature, and dismissing it does not take an action, since all you have to do to end the spell is to stop concentrating on your turn.

 

[delericho]

Lets say you have the power to Rebuke Undead. In the event of temporary loss of class abilities due to unintentional violation of class contraints, would you generally agree that any Undead which were controlled as a result of a successful prior Rebukes would revert to being uncontrolled?

In general, would any spells with ongoing duration immediately cease to function or would they continue to function normally?

I would rule that any spell or turning effect that was in place when the powers were lost would remain in effect until it expired naturally. If any spell or effect had a duration of "Concentration", though, I would rule that that concentration had been broken.

 

[Celebrim]

I would rule that any spell or turning effect that was in place when the powers were lost would remain in effect until it expired naturally. If any spell or effect had a duration of "Concentration", though, I would rule that that concentration had been broken.

So far as I can tell, the 'control' power of a rebuke undead has an unlimited duration and so doesn't expire. Am I wrong in this?

If not, does that imply that undead remains 'controlled' when the rebuker temporarily loses class abilities? As such, do they lose the power to issue further commands to already controlled undead or just to channel divine power?

 

[delericho]

So far as I can tell, the 'control' power of a rebuke undead has an unlimited duration and so doesn't expire. Am I wrong in this?

Ah, good point. Although the rebuke use has a 10-round duration, the command use does not, as you said. My mistake.

If not, does that imply that undead remains 'controlled' when the rebuker temporarily loses class abilities? As such, do they lose the power to issue further commands to already controlled undead or just to channel divine power?

They certainly lose the ability to channel divine power. As for losing control of already-commanded undead, that's a DM's call I guess.

I'd be inclined to rule that an Ex-Cleric (or Ex-Paladin, or whatever) has an effective "Cleric level" of 0. As such, any commanded undead would indeed become uncontrolled - as per the PHB p.159, "At any one time, the cleric may command any number of undead whose total Hit Dice do not exceed his level." (So, if level is 0...) However, YMMV of course.

 

[gamerprinter]

While I kind of agree that if a cleric suddenly his ability to interact with undead, after casting rebuke, the rebuke is auto-rescinded - I would probably rule that way in my games. That said, you ask, Celebrim, can you still issue commands to the undead, even after losing such abilities - if the rebuke is still under duration (you haven't ruled that its auto-rescinded, as I would rule), then no, you wouldn't lose the ability to command the undead, because a wizard controlling undead can tell the undead to respond to commands by other party members (who cannot themselves rebuke or control without his help). If the undead will obey the commands of a deligated third party, why wouldn't the first party still be able to issue commands, even though he cannot rebuke/control until his class features return. Still kind of a slippery slope.

 

[Celebrim]

While I kind of agree that if a cleric suddenly his ability to interact with undead, after casting rebuke, the rebuke is auto-rescinded - I would probably rule that way in my games. That said, you ask, Celebrim, can you still issue commands to the undead, even after losing such abilities - if the rebuke is still under duration (you haven't ruled that its auto-rescinded, as I would rule), then no, you wouldn't lose the ability to command the undead, because a wizard controlling undead can tell the undead to respond to commands by other party members (who cannot themselves rebuke or control without his help). If the undead will obey the commands of a deligated third party, why wouldn't the first party still be able to issue commands, even though he cannot rebuke/control until his class features return. Still kind of a slippery slope.

I haven't decided which way I'm going to rule this. I'm just putting it out for comment because it potentially matters a very big deal. If the PC's pet undead is uncontrolled, it's potentially very nasty. The party doesn't have a lot of ways of dealing with it except having a different PC turn it (which would destroy it). So if the thing goes uncontrolled its likely to cost the party quite a few resources. It might even depending on how things play out lead to PC death.

 

[absolution]

I would rule that the loss of control would be immediate as your power to revoke is a given by the god or ethos that you worship.