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Message: <blockquote data-quote="catastrophic" data-source="post: 5617034" data-attributes="member: 81381">Actually it's not a matter of swaying them, or convincing them, it's a matter of giving them a starting point for a more rational assesment of the issue.  Second, you assume that the concepts i'm summarising are not of rational merit, but anyone who has a rational view of game design knows that, for instance, 3e fighters are garbage. I can refrence that, and rational, informed people probably know what i'm talking about, or can ask about it. My assertions are supported by the fact- you're just not willing to recognise that, or aware of it. If i'm arguing about climate change, I don't actually have to prove that carbon emissions cause climate change. Rational, reasonable people accept that. See, your assumption is that this is a two sided issue, but really, it's a one sided bash-fest, where the people who actually know about the subject being bashed sometimes state an opinion, usually to the contrary.  And why, in this thread on this forum, does the burden of proof just happen to be on me? Because i'm making the assertion? I'm countering assertions. Where's their proof? In the essays about how gary gygax would be spinning in his grave, and how videogamey 4e is? That's proof? Oh of course, since they don't have any proof, and don't recognise any proof, the burden of evidence shifts to me?  The burden of proof is just something people throw at their opponents to appear rational.  And again, if we really got down into the nitty gritty of it, here's what would happen: 1)4e bashers would deny everything and post esays about gygaxian natualism. 2)you would ban me for edition warring 3) I would be completly wasting my time, and preaching to a choir, against another choir.  You're the one performing that dodge. Where are their facts? Where is their proof? In their hit lists about how 4e doesn't allow roleplaying? Spare me. You don't get to claim high minded ideals in this farce of a debate.  No, i'm stating my opinion. And if you think that 4e bashers are not constantly lobbying for their viewpoint well. . . that kind of one sided view does not suprise me.  Both sides of the climate change debate claim that the media is biased towards the other side. From this then, it follows that the media is beng even handed?  If people were arguing over wether the moon is made of green cheese or not, and both sides of the debate complained on moonconent.org about the mods being biased, would that make the mods unbiased? Your argument assumed that each side of the debate is identical, in that it complains about bias with identical merit. That's one step removed from circular logic, and none the better for it.  The thing is, for people who want to have cool stats, 4e has just as much of that stuff as 3e. The difference is, it's worked to get away from the system mastery traps and exploits that defined 3e.</blockquote>

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