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<blockquote data-quote="Water Bob" data-source="post: 6057948" data-attributes="member: 92305">I agree with Justin.&nbsp; His logic is sound, and the rules back him up.&nbsp;We agree on the awareness requirement of Surprise, but where we differ is that the rules use the words &quot;opponents&quot; and &quot;combatants&quot;.&nbsp;If your PC is walking down a street in a crowded bazaar, and there are guards standing around, you wouldn't play this out in combat rounds.&nbsp; Always playing in combat rounds would slow the game down considerably, making it quite boring.&nbsp; As Justin says, this would fail the Test of Common Sense.&nbsp;Instead, Combat is reserved for combat situations.&nbsp; And, when you're in combat, you have someone to fight--an &quot;opponent&quot; or &quot;combatant&quot;, as the rules say.&nbsp;Thus, the rules say, in regard to Surprise rounds, that Surprise can happen at the start of a combat round where some combatants are aware of foes and some opponents are not.&nbsp;Thus, playing the game in that bazaar, you stay in &quot;scenes&quot; unless a combat situation occurs.&nbsp; For a combat situation to occur, a threat has to appear.&nbsp; This means that an obvious foe appears at the start of combat, or one of the NPC characters in the bazaar that were previously not recoginized as opponents change status so that they are considered combatants.&nbsp;We're in the bazaar scene.&nbsp; A merchant steps out of his stall behind you, into the street with his hands in the air, yelling, &quot;THIEF!&nbsp; THIEF!&quot;.&nbsp; Pointing at you.&nbsp;You know that you've done nothing, but that hardly helps you in this situation.&nbsp;Combat between you and the guards, begins.&nbsp;Now, the guards, who were not combatants or opponents a moment ago now become your foe.&nbsp;Therefore, in the miniscule detail of combat, we determine at which point you recognized the guards as your opponents.&nbsp; We determine who, in the combat round, is surprised.&nbsp;We do this with appropriate Spot and Listen and Sense Motive checks.&nbsp;When we're done, we play out the combat encounter, with the Surprise round first, if any of the combatants are surprised.&nbsp;That's straight by the book, and that's what Justin is saying.&nbsp; And, I agree with his take.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Water Bob, post: 6057948, member: 92305"] I agree with Justin. His logic is sound, and the rules back him up. We agree on the awareness requirement of Surprise, but where we differ is that the rules use the words "opponents" and "combatants". If your PC is walking down a street in a crowded bazaar, and there are guards standing around, you wouldn't play this out in combat rounds. Always playing in combat rounds would slow the game down considerably, making it quite boring. As Justin says, this would fail the Test of Common Sense. Instead, Combat is reserved for combat situations. And, when you're in combat, you have someone to fight--an "opponent" or "combatant", as the rules say. Thus, the rules say, in regard to Surprise rounds, that Surprise can happen [I]at the start of a combat round[/I] where some [I]combatants[/I] are aware of [I]foes[/I] and some [I]opponents[/I] are not. Thus, playing the game in that bazaar, you stay in "scenes" unless a combat situation occurs. For a combat situation to occur, a threat has to appear. This means that an obvious foe appears at the start of combat, or one of the NPC characters in the bazaar that were previously not recoginized as opponents change status so that they are considered combatants. We're in the bazaar scene. A merchant steps out of his stall behind you, into the street with his hands in the air, yelling, "THIEF! THIEF!". Pointing at you. You know that you've done nothing, but that hardly helps you in this situation. Combat between you and the guards, begins. Now, the guards, who were not combatants or opponents a moment ago now become your foe. Therefore, in the miniscule detail of combat, we determine at which point you recognized the guards as your opponents. We determine who, in the combat round, is surprised. We do this with appropriate Spot and Listen and Sense Motive checks. When we're done, we play out the combat encounter, with the Surprise round first, if any of the combatants are surprised. That's straight by the book, and that's what Justin is saying. And, I agree with his take. [/QUOTE]

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