Recreating Dragon PC's (Large Homebrew Project)

[kivuli]

Introduction
I have been playing D&D (v. 3.5) for about 3 years now with some of my friends in college and have become enamored with dragons. After finding the Draconomicon, I wanted to run a dragon as a PC, but after looking in the book about that, I thought that the ECL ratings on the dragons were too high for what you get out of them in some cases (White dragons especially).

I also wasn’t really a fan of the Dragon #320 article on dragon PC’s either. Both of these options seemed to be rather odd in the way that they either advanced in level, (dragon levels?) or spread the learning of the dragon’s innate abilities through several levels.

I have also become less of a fan of the way that dragons are portrayed physically. Why do wyrmling dragons the size of cats, have the same land speed as great wyrms the size of a football field? Why do all dragons always have a Dex score of 10? How are wyrmling dragons able to fly?

To that end, I have spent much time over the past 2 years gathering as much information on dragons as possible and trying to create new “races” and classes for dragons that can be used as PC’s in a “normal” game where your companions are LA 0/+1 races and classes. (Low starting level, <10)

I am currently focusing on the 10 dragons from the 3.5 monster manual. (Black, Blue, Green, Red, White, Brass, Bronze, Copper, Gold, Silver).

Methodology
I am using Magecraft’s Class Construction System, found here, (I know that there are many different people who seem to have made the same kind of document, but I am using this one)

(For those not familiar with this, the basic premise is that each ability for a class (HD, Attack bonus, Armor Proficiency, Weapon Proficiency, Saves etc) as well as level dependent class feats and skills gained and spell casting abilities are given a point value, and adding up all of the scores will give you a total value that tells you roughly where that class falls in terms of power compared to other classes. All of the core classes from the 3.5 players handbook average out to 215 points, (+/-1 point) This then can used be as a guideline to build your own class, which then can be balanced out to match existing classes.)

I am also using Soldarin’s ECL Calculator and Guide, found here.

As for books, I have the Draconomicon (3.5) the Draconomicon I and II (from [FONT=&quot]4e[/FONT]), Savage Species (3.0), Races of the Dragon (3.5), Dragon Magic (3.5), Dragons of Krynn (3.5), Bestiary of Krynn (3.5), Dragons of Faerun (3.5), the Council of Wyrms Campaign Setting (AD&D), as well as a 3.5 Monster Manual I, a 3.5 Players Handbook, a 3.0 Dungeon Masters Guide, and Dragon magazine Issues 260, 272, 296, 308, 320 and 356. I also have a copy of the 3.5 Indexes.

I am playing in 3.5, and so the AD&D and [FONT=&quot]4e[/FONT] books are mostly for completeness and inspiration.

 

[kivuli]

Goals
When I started this project, I wanted to make sure that my dragons were really dragons. Therefore, there were several traits and features I decided that I would not compromise on.
All my dragons are of the dragon type.
From the SRD on the D&D Wiki:
[FONT=&quot]A [FONT=&quot]dragon[/FONT] has the following features:[/FONT]

• 12-sided Hit Dice.
• Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter, +1 Per HD).
• Good Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves.
• Skill points equal to (6 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die.

[FONT=&quot]Traits[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]A [FONT=&quot]dragon[/FONT] possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in the description of a particular kind). [/FONT]

• Darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision.
• Immunity to magic sleep effects and paralysis effects.
• Proficient with its natural weapons only unless humanoid in form (or capable of assuming humanoid form), in which case proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
• Proficient with no armor.
• [FONT=&quot]Dragons[/FONT] eat, sleep, and breathe.

These are all traits that my dragons possess.

Goals of the Project
With this project, I am trying to partially reimagine dragons and give them more personality, do some bug fixing and clean up some loose ends, as well as trying to lower their ECL to allow for opportunities for inclusion in a campaign as a PC. I don’t think that there is any reason that Dragons should be up on a golden pedestal, hidden under a glass cover that says DM Only. They’re in the name of the game! There’s no reason that they can’t/shouldn’t be movers and shakers. PC’s are defined as exceptional members of their race, and I think that there’s no reason that Dragons should be exempt from that claim.
On the other hand, I am not doing this to just add another playable race into the mix of playable monsters that everyone would choose to play as given the choice, or to add a cheese race. I think that careful planning and coordination with the DM of your respective campaign should be required. Playing a dragon is not something that should be done lightly.

I think that the more exotic that a character is, the more backstory and good roleplaying should be required to integrate them into the game. I think that with work a dragon could fit into any campaign setting, but that a very strong backstory should be required. It should be a memorable character to play, with well thought out motives, ideas, drives and goals. This doesn’t mean one can’t play a dragon as a bully, or a joker or even a low intelligence grunt, but there should be well developed reasons for the way they act. Really this should be a tenant of all characters, but…

 

[kivuli]

Quick Looks

Size and Scaling
I am focusing on small and medium size dragons, as they present the least issues in game. I will eventually roll up large dragons, but I would like to get the system I am using down first. I am still not sure I like the D&D method of making racial definitions of dragon sizes, i.e. small, medium and large dragons, (dragons that start tiny and only grow to gargantuan, dragons that start small and eventually grow to colossal, and dragons that start at medium and quickly grow to colossal.) I like the idea of the player having more control over the creation of their character. I think that they should be able to choose the size of dragon they want to start out as. So I probably will remove the starting sizes of dragons as they are listed in the monster manual.

Race and Class
One of the most difficult issues I am running into in this project is balancing abilities between the dragon race and the dragon class. The dragons are a race, or races, but I feel that they should have their own class as well. (I.E. favored class Dragon). This class would be the default class that they would advance in as they level. It really doesn’t make much sense for dragons to advance in most of the normal classes for PC’s. I am also thinking about making several different classes for dragons specifically that will focus them, like dragons that are slightly less tough, but can fly really fast, or dragons that can’t fly, and are slow, but have massive armor bonuses, dragons that focus on spell casting, or dragons that choose to maximize the power and utility of their breath weapons, but I am not yet at a point that I can flesh those out.

Abilities and Traits
In addition to those listed above, I have strong feelings about the inclusion of several other features of dragons, these include: breath weapons, flight, polymorphing, spell casting and spell like abilities and natural armor. I feel that dragons should have most of these traits and abilities. This does make balancing harder though. Give them too much spell casting, and suddenly you have a wizard or sorcerer with d12 HD and a full attack bonus. But, at the same time, it has been said that that sorcerers can trace their magical abilities back to dragons, so why shouldn’t dragons have potent spell casting abilities? There is also the question of how useful spells and abilities are outside of combat, and how that factors into the balance.

ECL and LA
I am trying to keep these as low as possible. Ideally, I would like to build a dragon that had no LA, but I don’t think that’s possible given my ideas of what a dragon should be.

 

[kivuli]

Examples


Here is the current iteration of one of the Dragon Race base templates. I have created others for small and tiny dragons, but working with a medium creature to start building a template presents the least wonkiness.


Very Young Dragon

Medium Size
40’ Movement
Fly 60’ with Average Maneuverability
30’ Swim OR 30’ Burrow (Depending on dragon)
May make a dive attack (i.e. a charge) and “run” while flying
Natural Weapons – Bite (1d8), 2 Claws (1d6) and Wing Slam (1d4)
Darkvision (120ft)
Blindsense (60ft)
Low-Light Vision
Immune to magic sleep effects and paralysis effects.
+4 Natural Armor Bonus to AC
Breath Weapon - 2d8
4HD Dragon, which grants skill points, feats, BAB & Base Save Bonuses
Level Adjustment +2

ECL is 6, then add + 1 for the 1st class level,

so total starting character ECL of 7.

This table is race neutral. There are no racial modifiers applied to this template for any of the specific dragon races on this table. This is just a general idea of what abilities and feats I’ve worked out so far.

Dragon Class Table

• ECL --HD---BAB-- Nat. Armor. Bonus -- Breath Damage ---Other
• 7th---1d12 +1 ------- +1---------------------------------- Bonus Feat
• 8th --2d12 +2----------------------------- +2d8
• 9th 3d12 --+3-------- +1
• 10th 4d12- +4----------------------------- +2d8
• 11th 5d12- +5 ------- +1
• 12th 6d12- +6 ---------------------------- +2d8---------- Bonus Feat
• 13th 7d12- +7 ------- +1
• 14th 8d12- +8----------------------------- +2d8
• 15th 9d12- +9-------- +1
• 16th 10d12 +10 -------------------------- +2d8 --------- Bonus Feat
• 17th 11d12 +11 ----- +1
• 18th 12d12 +12 -------------------------- +2d8
• 19th 13d12 +13 ----- +1 --------------------------------- Bonus Feat
• 20th 14d12 +14 -------------------------- +2d8

ECL is used here because of +6 ECL to base dragon race. ECL shows final ECL of dragon race + class.

Statwise - At 20th level, a dragon will have 18d12 HD, +18 Base attack bonus, +11 Natural Armor, a 16d8 Breath Weapon, and a total of 11 Feats.

This table also does not contain any racial modifiers.

 

[kivuli]

Questions/Comments


I have a lot more information than what is here, but I don’t want to overwhelm with too much information right now. If questions come up, I can always add more information.


My main questions are:


Does this seem like a reasonable goal/idea?


How is it looking in terms of “balance”?


Is there something I’m missing? Has someone else already done this, and I’ve somehow missed it?


Does anyone else have any questions, comments, flames, etc? Please tell me. This has been cooped up in my head so long; it’s sometimes hard to look at neutrally anymore.



Thanks very much for your time.


-K

 

[Herzog]

I think what you have here are two things:

1. A playable race with 4 racial HD and an LA of +2, with the abilities you specified. You should compare it to other playable races to see whether the LA is correct. (given the amount of special abilities I think you'll need to increase the LA significantly, but I haven't looked at it in detail myself)

2. A class with entry requirement 'Race: Dragon', with only 14 levels.
So, actually, more like a prestige class. (at least, I assume you have to be a dragon to take it.)
You get d12 HD and full Bab AND 6 skill points AND NA increase AND bonus feats AND a special attack damage increase more powerfull than that of, for instance, the rogue.
Also, I think I read somewhere you wanted to give them all good saves.
Too powerfull: yes.

Advice: put the NA increase, bonus feat and breath weapon increase in as options to select from at every two levels. In other words: you either get a bonus feat, a NA increase OR an increase in breath weapon damage.
In addition, reduce the optional Breath weapon damage increase to +1d8, restrict the bonus feats to a pre-set list of options, and reduce the number of skillpoints to 4 or even 2.

This will, of course, eventually result in a 'Dragon' far less powerfull than the ones in the MM when they arrive at the same HD.
However, those are not the stats you should be comparing against (which, from your posts, I think you have been doing). You SHOULD compare the class against other classes and/or prestige classes.
Then, and only then, will you be able to arrive at a class you could use in a normal campaign.

Of course, if you should open up the class to all characters, in something like an all dragon campaign, all bets are off. In that case, you only need to compare to the other player characters, who will probably all take as many lvls in this class as is possible.

 

[kivuli]

I think what you have here are two things:

1. A playable race with 4 racial HD and an LA of +2, with the abilities you specified. You should compare it to other playable races to see whether the LA is correct. (given the amount of special abilities I think you'll need to increase the LA significantly, but I haven't looked at it in detail myself)

Here is my ECL calculation for the race, using Soldarin's ECL Calculation System, found here.
ECL Calculations

Very Young Dragon

4 HD @ 0.8 = 3.2
Swim Speed OR Burrow Speed = 0.2/Per (Any given dragon will probably only have 1)
Flight (average maneuverability) = 0.5
+ 4 Natural Armor @ 0.2/Pt. = 0.8
Breath Weapon = 1.0
Blindsight = 0.2
Low Light Vision = 0.2
Paralysis/Sleep Immunity = 0.4
Total = 6.5 (6.7 with both burrow and swim) = 7 ECL
I rounded down to 6 ECL, due to combat tests, but I will revise to 7 ECL and see what happens.

2. A class with entry requirement 'Race: Dragon', with only 14 levels.
So, actually, more like a prestige class. (at least, I assume you have to be a dragon to take it.)

Yes, this would be a class just for the dragons.

13 levels (with the above ECL modification) because that is what it takes to get to a 20th level character. Depending on the final ECL of the race, this number would change.

You get d12 HD and full Bab AND 6 skill points AND NA increase AND bonus feats AND a special attack damage increase more powerfull than that of, for instance, the rogue.
Also, I think I read somewhere you wanted to give them all good saves.
Too powerfull: yes.

The breath weapon damage does look like it could be toned down a bit. I’ll look into it. For now, I’ll use your suggestion, (+1d8) Also, if I had to nerf something, the number of skill points would probably go first.

The other things, I’m not so sure.

Full Base Attack Bonus

Attacks with natural weapons do not gain bonus attacks for high attack bonuses. So the dragon gets its first attack at the listed base attack bonus. All other attacks are made at a -5 penalty. There are 2 feats, Multiattack, from the monster manual, and Improved Multiattack (from the epic handbook, but listed as a non-epic feat.) These reduce the penalty on secondary attacks to -2 and 0, respectively. That’s 2 feats burned right there. And even then, the damage potential isn’t extreme. (See below)

Natural Armor Increase

The dragon isn’t proficient with any armor. If it wants to wear armor, it must either wear a Mithril chain shirt (no armor check), or burn another feat for an armor proficiency to avoid the penalties on all attack rolls and strength and dexterity based checks. Regardless, it is also going to pay 2x the listed cost for the armor, due to its size/shape.

Bonus Feats

The dragon is going to be burning feats right and left just to be become “proficient” with its natural born abilities, (natural attacks, as above), as well as feats having to do with flight.

With only average maneuverability, the dragon can’t hover in place, or perform wingovers to change direction in flight quickly. To fix that requires 1 or 2 feats. Either Improved Maneuverability, to improve maneuverability by 1 step to good, thereby granting hover and wingover, or by taking the hover and wingover feats separately, while retaining average maneuverability.

Also, Flyby attack allows a dragon to fly before and after attacking. And even after this, they will take an attack of opportunity if trying to fly away after attacking. This can be helped with the Mobility feat, which grants a +4 Dodge bonus to AC against attacks of opportunity due to moving in or out of a threatened square. This feat however, requires you to have Dodge first. So, for the flight related skills, you are looking at a total of 3 feats to be able to do that well.

Combat wise:

I am assuming both combatants have the same AC score. (can be done with relative ease. Requires 1 magic +2 AC increasing item for the Human)

ECL 8 Dragon (1 Class Level)
5d12HD,(36 average)
Assuming 18 str
Dragon has Multiattack and Improved Multiattack. (0 penalty on secondary attack rolls)
Dragon also has an amulet of natural attacks +1 (+1 on attack and damage with natural and unarmed attacks
Dragon has a base attack bonus of +5

Bite
Attack at +10
1d8+5 = 9 average damage

2 Claws
Attack at +10
1d6+3 = 6 average damage
1d6+3 = 6 average damage
Attack at +10

2 Wings
1d4+3 = 5 average damage
1d4+3 = 5 average damage

= 31 average damage

Vs.

8th level human Fighter with Masterwork +2 Greatsword.
8d10HD(45 average)
Assuming 18 str.
Fighter has Weapon Focus Greatsword, and Weapon Specialization Greatsword.
Fighter has a base attack bonus of +8/+3

Fighters 2 Great Sword Attacks
Attacks at +14/+9
2d6+9 = 16 average damage
2d6+9 = 16 average damage

=32 average damage

The fighters weapon crits on a 19-20, and the dragons natural weapons only crit on a 20.

Feat Costs

The fighter has 6 feats left, the dragon has 2.

For ranged weapons, the dragon has a 2d8 breath weapon, usable every 1d4+1 rounds. The save DC for ½ damage will likely be around 15. (10+ 1/2HD (Currently will round to 2) + Con modifier. (Probably 3) The fighter has a reflex save of at least 4, assuming no negative dexterity mod, which means the fighter will save a good portion of the time. (Needs to roll 11+)

Monetary Costs

The amulet of natural attacks +1 costs 6000gp, and would cost an additional 18,000gp to enchant to a +2. (24,000gp-6,000gp). The fighters +2 Greatsword costs 8,350gp.

The fighter has plenty of money available left over to buy, say an Exotic Masterwork Composite Greatbow, Mighty +4, as well as enough feats to become proficient with it, and make himself rather deadly with it.

Advice: put the NA increase, bonus feat and breath weapon increase in as options to select from at every two levels. In other words: you either get a bonus feat, a NA increase OR an increase in breath weapon damage.
In addition, reduce the optional Breath weapon damage increase to +1d8, restrict the bonus feats to a pre-set list of options, and reduce the number of skillpoints to 4 or even 2.

Using the parameters you’ve suggested above, then at level 20, the dragon looks something like this:

(All options in natural armor)
17d12HD (108 average), +17 Attack Bonus, +11 natural armor,
7 feats, from list, 2d8 breath weapon damage, 4+ Int Skill Points

(All options in bonus feats)
17d12HD (108 average), +17 Attack bonus, +4 natural armor,
14 feats, from list, 2d8 breath weapon damage, 4+ Int Skill Points

(All options in breath weapon damage)
17d12HD (108 average), +17 Attack Bonus, +4 natural armor,
7 feats from list, 9d8 breath weapon damage, 4+ Int Skill Points

(Spread out between all)
17d12HD (108 average), +17 Attack Bonus, +6 natural armor,
9 feats from list, 5d8 breath weapon damage, 4+ Int Skill Points

I am not including abilities from the dragon race, because that is already accounted for in/with the LA.

Vs

Some Level 20 Humans

Barbarian
20d12HD (126 average), +20/+15/+10/+5 Attack Bonus,
DR 5/-, 7 Class Feats/Abilities + 8 Other Feats, 4+Int Skill Points

Cleric
20d8HD(84 average), +15/+10/+5 Attack Bonus, spells up to 9th level, Deity/Domain abilities, turn undead, +8 Other Feats, 2+Int Skill Points

Fighter
20d10HD(105 average), +20/+15/+10/+5 Attack Bonus, 19 feats, 2+ Int Skill Points

Druid
20d8HD(84 average), +15/+10/+5 Attack Bonus, Animal Companion, Wild Shape,
6 Class Abilities/Feats, +8 Other Feats, Spells up to 9th level, 4+ Int Skill Points

Monk
20d8HD(84 average), +15/+10/+5 Attack Bonus, 3 Bonus Feats, 19 other class feats/abilities, including +4 AC, Flurry of Blows @2d10, +60ft land speed, +8 other feats, 4+Int Skill Points

Given the comparisons, which would you rather play? Which one looks more appealing to you, as a martial-type character?

However, those are not the stats you should be comparing against (which, from your posts, I think you have been doing). You SHOULD compare the class against other classes and/or prestige classes.
Then, and only then, will you be able to arrive at a class you could use in a normal campaign.

Which stats are you referring to? On paper stats, as above, implied utility out of combat? Power/damage in combat?
Also, what should I use to make this comparison. Again, I am currently using Echohawks system, found here.

I need to find a way to convert some documents, then I can upload my calculations using the above system.

Thanks very much for your reply. This makes me make sure that I am being clear and coherent in my explanations, and forces me to explain what I am trying to accomplish here. Your help in hashing out this project is appreciated.

-K