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Message: <blockquote data-quote="kivuli" data-source="post: 5462972" data-attributes="member: 6667078">Here is my ECL calculation for the race, using Soldarin's ECL Calculation System, found <a href="http://uenics.evansville.edu/%7Ejc84/DD3/Monster_ECL.htm" target="_blank">here</a>.   ECL Calculations      Very Young Dragon      4 HD @ 0.8 = 3.2   Swim Speed OR Burrow Speed = 0.2/Per (Any given dragon will probably only have 1)   Flight (average maneuverability) = 0.5   + 4 Natural Armor @ 0.2/Pt. = 0.8   Breath Weapon = 1.0   Blindsight = 0.2   Low Light Vision = 0.2   Paralysis/Sleep Immunity = 0.4   Total = 6.5 (6.7 with both burrow and swim) = 7 ECL   I rounded down to 6 ECL, due to combat tests, but I will revise to 7 ECL and see what happens.    Yes, this would be a class just for the dragons.13 levels (with the above ECL modification) because that is what it takes to get to a 20th level character. Depending on the final ECL of the race, this number would change. The breath weapon damage does look like it could be toned down a bit. I’ll look into it. For now, I’ll use your suggestion, (+1d8) Also, if I had to nerf something, the number of skill points would probably go first.    The other things, I’m not so sure.    Full Base Attack Bonus   Attacks with natural weapons do not gain bonus attacks for high attack bonuses. So the dragon gets its first attack at the listed base attack bonus. All other attacks are made at a -5 penalty. There are 2 feats, Multiattack, from the monster manual, and Improved Multiattack (from the epic handbook, but listed as a non-epic feat.) These reduce the penalty on secondary attacks to -2 and 0, respectively. That’s 2 feats burned right there. And even then, the damage potential isn’t extreme. (See below)   Natural Armor Increase   The dragon isn’t proficient with any armor. If it wants to wear armor, it must either wear a Mithril chain shirt (no armor check), or burn another feat for an armor proficiency to avoid the penalties on all attack rolls and strength and dexterity based checks. Regardless, it is also going to pay 2x the listed cost for the armor, due to its size/shape.    Bonus Feats   The dragon is going to be burning feats right and left just to be become “proficient” with its natural born abilities, (natural attacks, as above), as well as feats having to do with flight.    With only average maneuverability, the dragon can’t hover in place, or perform wingovers to change direction in flight quickly. To fix that requires 1 or 2 feats. Either Improved Maneuverability, to improve maneuverability by 1 step to good, thereby granting hover and wingover, or by taking the hover and wingover feats separately, while retaining average maneuverability.    Also, Flyby attack allows a dragon to fly before and after attacking. And even after this, they will take an attack of opportunity if trying to fly away after attacking. This can be helped with the Mobility feat, which grants a +4 Dodge bonus to AC against attacks of opportunity due to moving in or out of a threatened square. This feat however, requires you to have Dodge first. So, for the flight related skills, you are looking at a total of 3 feats to be able to do that well.    Combat wise:   I am assuming both combatants have the same AC score. (can be done with relative ease. Requires 1 magic +2 AC increasing item for the Human)   ECL 8 Dragon (1 Class Level)   5d12HD,(36 average)   Assuming 18 str   Dragon has Multiattack and Improved Multiattack. (0 penalty on secondary attack rolls)   Dragon also has an amulet of natural attacks +1 (+1 on attack and damage with natural and unarmed attacks   Dragon has a base attack bonus of +5      Bite   Attack at +10   1d8+5 = 9 average damage   2 Claws   Attack at +10   1d6+3 = 6 average damage   1d6+3 = 6 average damage   Attack at +10   2 Wings   1d4+3 = 5 average damage   1d4+3 = 5 average damage   = 31 average damage   Vs.   8th level human Fighter with Masterwork +2 Greatsword.   8d10HD(45 average)   Assuming 18 str.   Fighter has Weapon Focus Greatsword, and Weapon Specialization Greatsword.   Fighter has a base attack bonus of +8/+3       Fighters 2 Great Sword Attacks   Attacks at +14/+9   2d6+9 = 16 average damage    2d6+9 = 16 average damage   =32 average damage      The fighters weapon crits on a 19-20, and the dragons natural weapons only crit on a 20. Feat Costs      The fighter has 6 feats left, the dragon has 2.       For ranged weapons, the dragon has a 2d8 breath weapon, usable every 1d4+1 rounds. The save DC for ½ damage will likely be around 15. (10+ 1/2HD (Currently will round to 2) + Con modifier. (Probably 3) The fighter has a reflex save of at least 4, assuming no negative dexterity mod, which means the fighter will save a good portion of the time. (Needs to roll 11+)Monetary Costs      The amulet of natural attacks +1 costs 6000gp, and would cost an additional 18,000gp to enchant to a +2. (24,000gp-6,000gp). The fighters +2 Greatsword costs 8,350gp.The fighter has plenty of money available left over  to buy, say an Exotic Masterwork Composite Greatbow, Mighty +4, as well  as enough feats to become proficient with it, and make himself rather  deadly with it.        Using the parameters you’ve suggested above, then at level 20, the dragon looks something like this:      (All options in natural armor)   17d12HD (108 average), +17 Attack Bonus, +11 natural armor,    7 feats, from list, 2d8 breath weapon damage, 4+ Int Skill Points      (All options in bonus feats)   17d12HD (108 average), +17 Attack bonus, +4 natural armor,   14 feats, from list, 2d8 breath weapon damage, 4+ Int Skill Points      (All options in breath weapon damage)   17d12HD (108 average), +17 Attack Bonus, +4 natural armor,   7 feats from list, 9d8 breath weapon damage, 4+ Int Skill Points      (Spread out between all)   17d12HD (108 average), +17 Attack Bonus, +6 natural armor,   9 feats from list, 5d8 breath weapon damage, 4+ Int Skill Points      I am not including abilities from the dragon race, because that is already accounted for in/with the LA.      Vs      Some Level 20 Humans      Barbarian   20d12HD (126 average), +20/+15/+10/+5 Attack Bonus,    DR 5/-, 7 Class Feats/Abilities + 8 Other Feats, 4+Int Skill Points      Cleric   20d8HD(84 average), +15/+10/+5 Attack Bonus, spells up to 9th level, Deity/Domain abilities, turn undead, +8 Other Feats, 2+Int Skill Points      Fighter   20d10HD(105 average), +20/+15/+10/+5 Attack Bonus, 19 feats, 2+ Int Skill Points      Druid   20d8HD(84 average), +15/+10/+5 Attack Bonus, Animal Companion, Wild Shape,    6 Class Abilities/Feats, +8 Other Feats, Spells up to 9th level, 4+ Int Skill Points      Monk   20d8HD(84 average), +15/+10/+5 Attack Bonus, 3 Bonus Feats, 19 other class feats/abilities, including +4 AC, Flurry of Blows @2d10, +60ft land speed, +8 other feats, 4+Int Skill Points Given the comparisons, which would you rather play? Which one looks more appealing to you, as a martial-type character?       Which stats are you referring to?  On paper stats, as above, implied utility out of combat? Power/damage in combat? Also, what should I use to make this comparison. Again, I am currently using Echohawks system, found <a href="http://www.scribd.com/doc/14599990/Community3e-Class-Construction-Rules-d20-system" target="_blank">here.</a>   I need to find a way to convert some documents, then I can upload my calculations using the above system.      Thanks very much for your reply. This makes me make sure that I am being clear and coherent in my explanations, and forces me to explain what I am trying to accomplish here. Your help in hashing out this project is appreciated.      -K</blockquote>

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