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<blockquote data-quote="nnms" data-source="post: 5308613" data-attributes="member: 83293">I'm not convinced character creation is all that limited compared to the Mentzer red box.&nbsp; So much of what made the Mentzer characters unique had little or no impact on the game.&nbsp; It was still very much archetype based and your class choice mattered way, way more than your ability scores.The new red box is very similar to that.&nbsp; Stat choices are nearly irrelevant as well.&nbsp; Instead of rolling and seeing what classes fit, you pick a class and get the stats to fit.&nbsp; You use the standard array and the stats go in a way that make your character not suck.A shopping list with a few weapon stats would be cool.&nbsp; Especially given how the monsters have all sorts of weapons on them.The limited magic items are kind of crappy.&nbsp; It'd be nice to have more, but I don't think the game is reliant on magic items during levels 1 &amp; 2.&nbsp; It functions just fine in the early levels with no magic items given at all.&nbsp; The game math only falls apart without magic items at levels 4 and up.I'm also not sure that I buy that the DM can't make his own adventures with what's provided.&nbsp; There's a big list of monsters.&nbsp; And examples of the type of treasure parcels each fight should have.&nbsp; There's suggestions on how to get more millage out of the one poster map, but drawing your own is only a piece of paper, a ruler and a sharpie away.Without being able to buy things, GPs are basically just your score.&nbsp; And the limited source of magic items doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing.&nbsp; I could totally see a group playing their second group of characters and one of them saying &quot;I'm going to get that chainmail +2 this time&quot; and it being part of the fun.&nbsp; Or a player asking &quot;Can this axe be a mace instead this time?&quot; and the DM going &quot;Yes.&nbsp; Yes it can.&quot;I just reread the section on designing adventures and whatnot.&nbsp; And I disagree with your assessment that it's incomplete.&nbsp; It tells you how to design quests, how to place and use monsters, and even how to get more use out of the map as well as a paragraph on making your own (even suggesting drawing them out yourself on large graph paper).The only thing I wanted out of the red box that it didn't give was a smooth transition to Heroes of the Fallen Lands.&nbsp; I'm disappointed that pretty much every class has something wrong with it compared to the HoFL builds.&nbsp; The fighter uses the wrong stat for bonus damage, the wizard has a double shot magic missile, the rogue has both at-will attack and movement powers and the cleric doesn't smite undead.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="nnms, post: 5308613, member: 83293"] I'm not convinced character creation is all that limited compared to the Mentzer red box. So much of what made the Mentzer characters unique had little or no impact on the game. It was still very much archetype based and your class choice mattered way, way more than your ability scores. The new red box is very similar to that. Stat choices are nearly irrelevant as well. Instead of rolling and seeing what classes fit, you pick a class and get the stats to fit. You use the standard array and the stats go in a way that make your character not suck. A shopping list with a few weapon stats would be cool. Especially given how the monsters have all sorts of weapons on them. The limited magic items are kind of crappy. It'd be nice to have more, but I don't think the game is reliant on magic items during levels 1 & 2. It functions just fine in the early levels with no magic items given at all. The game math only falls apart without magic items at levels 4 and up. I'm also not sure that I buy that the DM can't make his own adventures with what's provided. There's a big list of monsters. And examples of the type of treasure parcels each fight should have. There's suggestions on how to get more millage out of the one poster map, but drawing your own is only a piece of paper, a ruler and a sharpie away. Without being able to buy things, GPs are basically just your score. And the limited source of magic items doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing. I could totally see a group playing their second group of characters and one of them saying "I'm going to get that chainmail +2 this time" and it being part of the fun. Or a player asking "Can this axe be a mace instead this time?" and the DM going "Yes. Yes it can." I just reread the section on designing adventures and whatnot. And I disagree with your assessment that it's incomplete. It tells you how to design quests, how to place and use monsters, and even how to get more use out of the map as well as a paragraph on making your own (even suggesting drawing them out yourself on large graph paper). The only thing I wanted out of the red box that it didn't give was a smooth transition to Heroes of the Fallen Lands. I'm disappointed that pretty much every class has something wrong with it compared to the HoFL builds. The fighter uses the wrong stat for bonus damage, the wizard has a double shot magic missile, the rogue has both at-will attack and movement powers and the cleric doesn't smite undead. [/QUOTE]

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