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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Scribble" data-source="post: 5314800" data-attributes="member: 23977">I guess we'll just have to disagree here, as I think you have to take how it ties in with the rest of the line into account.I don't really disagree here. My main point though was that if they had to make a choice (sometimes 5 cents here and there matters a lot) and the choice was either give us all the bits and pieces, or skip some of them to afford standard Character creation rules- I'm glad they went with what they went with.If that's what you're hearing from me, either I'm doing a bad job explaining, or you're missing my points?Boxed sets don't have to lead into boxed sets- my point is thats what IS happening in the case of DA.In the case of the Red Box it's leading into the books.(If you're comparing box one of DA to the red box, then wouldn't it be equal to compare essentials player books with DA? In the essentials books you get character creation rules up to level 30 for 20 bux... )Now THIS part is largely based on my own anecdotal evidence about the black box.  I feel that this Red Box is destined to be basically a throw away item- and that wouldn't change even if they put more character creation rules in there.The black box had character creation rules outside of the in adventure build a character method, but right after that first adventure and I was hooked on D&D I went out and got the Rules Cyclopedia. After that the black box character creation rules went ignored. I feel the same thing will happen with the red box. All it needs to do is grab a new players attention and get him into the idea of the game as quickly as possible.I think the red box will succeed at that very well. It has all the parts you need to get up and playing, it has a really good price point, and there isn't a boring learn before the fun part.I think new players will buy it, get hooked on D&D then move on to essentials leaving the red box to sit on the shelf (just like my black box.) The red box is essentialy a tutorial device. It's a way to have someone experienced kind of show you the ropes without having to have an actual person.It doesn't need a better cover for instance because it's not going to be constantly referred to.  Why give it something it doesn't need when you can better use that money elsewhere in the product?It doesn't need character creation rules, because they will end up being ignored after the player inevitably gets the essentials books. So again why put money into something that will be unused as opposed to using it on the parts that will be.IE Including dice, tokens, cards, a map, and a really great price point.If you can add the additional elements without sacrificing anything else, then I'm on board, but I still think it will be largely a waste of time. It just needs to get you up and experiencing D&D and understanding how the rules work in a fun way, after that I'm thinking it will be largely ignored.Sure- you can argue that they could make it the first couple of levels and then make essentials move on from there... But then you have people upset because they have to buy the red box to get a complete game.This is why I say we can argue whether delivering your game in bite sized chunks or delivering your game in an intro taste and then one fell swoop is a better methodology all day long... But I don't think you can compare the two products directly. They are designed for different uses.Not at all- I just think people aren't taking everything into consideration when pointing out a lot of "issues."I think they DO definitely need to fix the rules errors for instance.New player should be able to take his character if he wants right into the full essentials line.I'm guessing they will fix them once the new cover gets printed and the thing heads out to Target and Walmart, etc...</blockquote>

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