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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Cergorach" data-source="post: 5324881" data-attributes="member: 725">I just had a copy to browse through and my hopes for an attractive 4th Edition starter set went out the window.My main gripe with 4th is related to the presentation, with every edition pre 4E (basic redbox, 2E, 3E) when I opened the player's handbook, it screamed "Play me!" (it still kind of does). But while 4E has some very solid mechanics, the PHB looks and reads like a bloody (university) text book full with walls of text. I compare it to the spell section of the previous PHBs, Oodles and Oodles of information, but very little of it usefull right now. If your are a mage, only a few spells in your spell book matter, the rest isn't useful right now. If your a cleric, more spells matter, but there's still a lot you can't cast (yet). So that section (rightly so) went into the back of the book. In 4E it starts at page 50 and goes on for 125 pages, 17 pages of feats also doesn't help, nor do 30 pages of magic items (why they are in the PHB still baffles me) and the 20 pages are rightly in the back. Maybe it is organized in a concise, page-flip-friendly way, but imho it scares away way more players (even D&D veterans) then it attracts.I had hoped that the new Red Box starter set would remedy the issue of information overflow and limit it all to maybe the first 3-4 levels. Organizing the book aimed at a new player that is interested in playing a fantasy game and not Maths & Dungeons. Keep the level 1 character generation stuff in one chapter and the next level in another (maybe even a separate booklet), cutting all the feats/stuff that isn't necessary. The new Red Box fails miserably, because instead of playing a fantasy game, the are reading a book where they can't even keep the reading order straight! A solo adventure is great for learning the game, but imho it shouldn't be the beginner player's handbook.Some folks have and will argue that looks don't matter, that presentation doesn't matter, only the content. Well... You keep telling yourself that when you look in the mirror ;-) But it does matter to (most of) us, getting folks to start reading something is half the battle, the other half is getting them to continue reading. How can 4E succeed when they have difficulty with folks actually wanting to read the 4E PHB.When I pick up a Pathfinder book it screams "Play me!", when I pick up a Warhammer Fantasy/40k book it screams "Play me!", when I pick up a WarMachine/Hordes/Heavy Gear/Dark Heresy/Rogue Trade/Deathwatch/WFRPG 2E/Battletech/Shadowrun book it screams "Play me!!!".I have every official WotC 4E release in the bookcase (or still on order) and only a few Pathfinder books, so it's not that I hate D&D (4E). It just not doing 'it' for me, I had high hopes for the RB, it goes in a direction I did not expect. Which wouldn't be such a big deal if the direction doesn't really solve the problem I face, it just transforms into another problem.I'm awaiting the other new D&D material, but if things don't improve Soon(tm) I'm throwing in the towl with buying 4E books/boxes. I'm (again) running out of book shelf space and there are other (more) worthy books that need a resting place on my shelves.</blockquote>

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