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"Red Orc" American Indians and "Yellow Orc" Mongolians in D&D
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<blockquote data-quote="Snarf Zagyg" data-source="post: 8490674" data-attributes="member: 7023840"><p>That's great. If you're in the UK. Some of us aren't.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That's kind of the problem, isn't it? Whether you are, or are not, happy shouldn't be the standard. You (or anyone) shouldn't be the individual gatekeeper to all media. What if, for example, someone wanted to do an undergraduate thesis on comedy, and they no longer had access to this material? Your imaginings that it might come back, somewhere, eventually, doesn't really help.</p><p></p><p></p><p>That's what I said. But they usually remove <em>specific</em> episodes. That was entirely what I wrote. Because it's a profit incentive. If you are a company like Netflix (that just has licensing rights) you will usually just remove the whole thing. If you still believe that the money is worth the hassle, you will usually remove <em>specific episodes</em> or otherwise try to rehabilitate it.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Google is your friend. If you can't find any others than the ones I quickly listed <em>off the top of my head</em>, then you aren't trying very hard. Heck, people are complaining about the Michael Jackson episode missing from the Simpsons ... again, the IP HOLDER is removing a specific episode. But there are a metric TON of them. Whether it's scenes cut, or whole episodes, or entire shows- feel free to research. The more you know!</p><p></p><p>And all of this is orthogonal to the issues raised by the thread and the OP. I will again reiterate- <u>I agree with the OP's original analysis, and I think it is important to critique the past</u>. I think it's awful that the OP got pushback on the issue, but I am unfortunately unsurprised. I recall that when I mentioned a similar issue - the obvious misogyny in the 1e DMG, for example, the town entries has two possible encounters with women- one is a harlot, and one is a goodwife; the goodwife might know gossip, but she might also falsely accuse the adventurers of crimes such as rape. Yep. Of course, acknowledging that this is problematic at best tends to raise the hackles of people.</p><p></p><p>That said, I strongly disagree with the OP's push for specific remedies, and the OP's labeling anyone who disagrees with him as "fearmongering." It's not. DriveThruRPG does not list specific sales numbers, but we know that B/X and BECMI aren't widely played now in general from overall market numbers, and I would be shocked if a specific issue of the Gazetteer sells more than 10 copies a month. This barely qualifies as peanuts. More importantly, the OP doesn't specify what the specific issue is that he has with the product - no, I'm not being facetious here. I understand the analysis and I agree with it.</p><p></p><p>But is the issue that this legacy product is still available, and people can still be exposed to it? Or that it ever existed and caused harm? The second is, IMO, generally without a remedy- after all, the past is the past, and there will be problems everywhere. If it's the first, then I assume that people who seek it out understand that it's a legacy product and a product of its times, in the same way that if I watch Cheers (for example), I am probably going to be more attuned to the abusive dynamic between Sam and Diane that was accompanied by a laughtrack.</p><p></p><p>That's what I am getting to- it is entirely possible to agree with the OP's analysis, and still, in good faith, disagree that <em>action must be done to rectify this. </em></p><p></p><p>Quite frankly, action should be done regarding current products, and current people, and current actions. This extrapolation of current beliefs on to the past, while great for sharpening our critical thinking and helping us appreciate where we are now, does little good. The past should remain a mirror that we hold up to help us realize where we are today- not a place we keep returning to so that we can improve it.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Snarf Zagyg, post: 8490674, member: 7023840"] That's great. If you're in the UK. Some of us aren't. That's kind of the problem, isn't it? Whether you are, or are not, happy shouldn't be the standard. You (or anyone) shouldn't be the individual gatekeeper to all media. What if, for example, someone wanted to do an undergraduate thesis on comedy, and they no longer had access to this material? Your imaginings that it might come back, somewhere, eventually, doesn't really help. That's what I said. But they usually remove [I]specific[/I] episodes. That was entirely what I wrote. Because it's a profit incentive. If you are a company like Netflix (that just has licensing rights) you will usually just remove the whole thing. If you still believe that the money is worth the hassle, you will usually remove [I]specific episodes[/I] or otherwise try to rehabilitate it. Google is your friend. If you can't find any others than the ones I quickly listed [I]off the top of my head[/I], then you aren't trying very hard. Heck, people are complaining about the Michael Jackson episode missing from the Simpsons ... again, the IP HOLDER is removing a specific episode. But there are a metric TON of them. Whether it's scenes cut, or whole episodes, or entire shows- feel free to research. The more you know! And all of this is orthogonal to the issues raised by the thread and the OP. I will again reiterate- [U]I agree with the OP's original analysis, and I think it is important to critique the past[/U]. I think it's awful that the OP got pushback on the issue, but I am unfortunately unsurprised. I recall that when I mentioned a similar issue - the obvious misogyny in the 1e DMG, for example, the town entries has two possible encounters with women- one is a harlot, and one is a goodwife; the goodwife might know gossip, but she might also falsely accuse the adventurers of crimes such as rape. Yep. Of course, acknowledging that this is problematic at best tends to raise the hackles of people. That said, I strongly disagree with the OP's push for specific remedies, and the OP's labeling anyone who disagrees with him as "fearmongering." It's not. DriveThruRPG does not list specific sales numbers, but we know that B/X and BECMI aren't widely played now in general from overall market numbers, and I would be shocked if a specific issue of the Gazetteer sells more than 10 copies a month. This barely qualifies as peanuts. More importantly, the OP doesn't specify what the specific issue is that he has with the product - no, I'm not being facetious here. I understand the analysis and I agree with it. But is the issue that this legacy product is still available, and people can still be exposed to it? Or that it ever existed and caused harm? The second is, IMO, generally without a remedy- after all, the past is the past, and there will be problems everywhere. If it's the first, then I assume that people who seek it out understand that it's a legacy product and a product of its times, in the same way that if I watch Cheers (for example), I am probably going to be more attuned to the abusive dynamic between Sam and Diane that was accompanied by a laughtrack. That's what I am getting to- it is entirely possible to agree with the OP's analysis, and still, in good faith, disagree that [I]action must be done to rectify this. [/I] Quite frankly, action should be done regarding current products, and current people, and current actions. This extrapolation of current beliefs on to the past, while great for sharpening our critical thinking and helping us appreciate where we are now, does little good. The past should remain a mirror that we hold up to help us realize where we are today- not a place we keep returning to so that we can improve it. [/QUOTE]
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