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<blockquote data-quote="Bedrockgames" data-source="post: 8496632" data-attributes="member: 85555">I think something to address here is orcs are not really, or at least weren't, a race as we think of race. So you are not talking about biological determinism among humans, you are talking about something more like how humans are different from other species. And even Race as a descriptor for demi human races, wasn't describing real world race (if it were you would also have put different human racial groups in the Race entry for characters). So I think part of the problem with this discussion is how the term race was used in the game and what it meant, versus what it means in normal language. Also, count me in as someone who is both against taking away sharp edges and against biological determinism. Racialist thinking bothers me a great deal. But I think for a game where you are dealing with monsters, it isn't the same as talking about human groups. Obviously it could be. A GM or a setting could code those things so they are meant to be some kind of weird Aryan vision of a world, and that would be a problem. I don't think they are automatically those things though. Also just on the whole orc killing thing it is worth pointing out there has long been a debate about when it is actually okay for good characters to kill monsters, even when they are evil. And I think a lot fo that does hinge on how much one sees it more as orcs are an abstraction of the concept of evil and you are role-playing this clash of cosmic forces, versus a less figurative mindset.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Bedrockgames, post: 8496632, member: 85555"] I think something to address here is orcs are not really, or at least weren't, a race as we think of race. So you are not talking about biological determinism among humans, you are talking about something more like how humans are different from other species. And even Race as a descriptor for demi human races, wasn't describing real world race (if it were you would also have put different human racial groups in the Race entry for characters). So I think part of the problem with this discussion is how the term race was used in the game and what it meant, versus what it means in normal language. Also, count me in as someone who is both against taking away sharp edges and against biological determinism. Racialist thinking bothers me a great deal. But I think for a game where you are dealing with monsters, it isn't the same as talking about human groups. Obviously it could be. A GM or a setting could code those things so they are meant to be some kind of weird Aryan vision of a world, and that would be a problem. I don't think they are automatically those things though. Also just on the whole orc killing thing it is worth pointing out there has long been a debate about when it is actually okay for good characters to kill monsters, even when they are evil. And I think a lot fo that does hinge on how much one sees it more as orcs are an abstraction of the concept of evil and you are role-playing this clash of cosmic forces, versus a less figurative mindset. [/QUOTE]

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