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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7065960" data-attributes="member: 42582">Because redeeming an evildoer is about changing their bonds, their flaws and their ideals? It's about changing their personality and convictions, and these are the game mechanics that represent these things?To me, it seems that the paladin has been a core element of the game since 1st ed AD&D. And the heart of the paladin class has always been the "knight in shining armour": this is clear from (eg) the holy avenger sword, and level titles such as Gallant and Chevalier, as well as the name "paladin" itself.The extent to which any particular paladin focuses on redemption, or mercy, or justice, obviously will vary, but the idea that violence is a last resort, and that evildoers are capable of being redeemed, but also that evildoers must be held to account (and, upon their redemption, may insist - as part of their moral transformation - that they be held to account), has always been there. It's implicit in the very idea of the class, and the stories/traditions that the class draws upon.As I've posted, I feel that a sub-class that (i) calls out the idea of violence as a last resort as though that is something distinctive about that particular sub-class, and that (ii) uses a mind controlling enchantment spell as its pathway into redemption, is cheapening or undermining the paladin archetype. I don't think that that view is a sign that I want to play a different game. I've never had any trouble realising the paladin archetype (or other, comparable, archetype that incorporate honour and/or a proper degree of other-regard (mercy, compassion, etc), such as certain samurai, martial artists, priests, etc) in earlier versions of the game (I'm thinking especially AD&D and 4e).In AD&D, for instance, the loyalty chart on DMG p 37 (which is also applicable to reaction checks: p 63), tells us that having ransomed or rescued someone grants +15%, and saving someone's life directly or personally grants +25%. So a paladin who spares an enemy's life, and thereby demonstrates - through deeds - the quality and value of mercy, gets a reaction bonus of (say) +20%, on top of a CHA bonus of at least +30% (for 17 CHA). To do redemption, you don't need magic mechanics: you need proper social/interaction mechanics. There's nothing in the D&D tradition that is inimical to that.</blockquote>

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