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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Imaro" data-source="post: 7067420" data-attributes="member: 48965">I've answered this in another post but let me just say... nothing above points to magic. a.) Yeah you just gave him a serious thrashing... put him at the edge of unconsciousness... but spared his life and are badass enough to give him a lecture on top of it, all with a weapon that didn't draw any blood... he'd be foolish to be anything but peaceful and docile at this point.b.) Yep because what we don't want is the enemy slurping down a healing potion once you've failed to redeem him and attacking you, fleeing, etc.  It doesn't fit the thematic fiction.  One would assume if the paladin feels he has a shot at redemption... he'd heal him.  Either way this ensures the paladin's defeat of the enemy stays relevant.c.) The overwhelming majority of conditions in the game are caused by magic... even frightened which both the battlemaster and barbarian can inflict.  that's the nature of the game when you have 100's of magical spells.Again it's not magical... charmed is a game condition, not an in world state for the fiction.  A charm person spell is an in world magical effect that inflicts the charmed condition.  Charmed in and of itself is not magical by default... it is a condition just like unconscious or grabbed or frightened. I'd also be interested in what you all think of my points above...Uhm ok so it guarantees... 1.) 1. min of advantage on all social interactions (isn't this exactly the benefit you wanted from learning flaws, ideals, etc.?)2.) The creature cannot take actions (run away, attack, etc.) while you are giving him your redemption speech3.) No his attitude doesn't change... that's where the roleplaying and skill use comes into the picture.  You have a setup conducive to it, but it's not an "I WIN" buttonNOTE: You do realize that the spell Charm Person does in fact change the targets attitude to friendly... so I'm not quite understanding why the fact that this doesn't work like that is proof of magic.  This statement is a real head scratcher logic wise. Since I would think changing a foe's attitude, who you've beaten to the edge of consciousness, have at your mercy, and are lecturing on life... instantly to friendly would be...well...magical. Yes but that's because I think you are dealing with some incorrect assumptions and I think you already have a set idea of how this should be represented... thus making you less open to accepting alternative ways to model it.Not at all... Everything above falls in line with the thematics well enough and the only thing jarring is again, IMO, due to your assumptions about the nature of certain things (like the charmed condition)... which aren't really holding up when examinedNope it won't but someone playing the paladin in such a way (i.e. not being true to the archetype) could certainly model the fiction as such...  Of course you can purposefully re-skin or play against theme, for almost any class in D&D.  Not sure how that speaks to whether the class will work for someone who embraces the thematics of the redemption paladin though.  It's assuming a bad player and then blaming the class for it.Nope disagree and this is where I think the big contention comes in.  D&D 5e is based on rulings not rules.  The DM is trusted to play this scene out with his players with integrity and it's the right call IMO.  Everyone isn't redeemable (and I'd argue that's a big part of the tropes and thematics of the class as well) so you're auto-friends shift totally destroys that possibility and eliminates any tension and drama that is generated when this plays out... to me that's silly and thematically inappropriate.  I don't want that expectation set up for the paladin because exploring a character who can't be redeemed and won't be the paladin's friend (and may even hate him more for his mercy and efforts) is valid and should be a possibility if the rolls play out that way.If it's both automatic and permanent... what would stop  players who would beat down entire towns and force every NPC to have a permanent friendly attitude (now everyone gives info freely and will do things easily for you) to them... Nope, don't want to even entertain that type of silliness. Eh, and I think you have a specific way mechanically you want this modeled (which in and of itself is fine) but there is nothing inherently wrong (thematically or mechanically) with the way it has been done by the Devs here, in fact I see more issues with the way you are suggesting it be modeled than with the way it works now.</blockquote>

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