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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 7069390" data-attributes="member: 6696971">Alright, have a few here to post. [mention]Imaro[mention] 1)  In post 87 I stated that Fey Presence and Hypnotic Gaze were clearly magical charms.  However (not having my books available), I thought I remembered the text of one or both of them as not explicitly calling the effect magical (or a spell).  Now, looking at the text, Fey Presence is the one.  It doesn't call the effect out as magical (or a spell) although through the context of supernatural patronage (and the general context of the ability), one clearly should infer it is magical. So, given (a) the context of the same sort of supernatural patronage as Warlocks for Paladins (be it actual deities or oaths/quests which empower them with divinity), (b) a similar lack of explicitly calling the effect magical, and (c) the context of the ability itself (being tantamount to not just a Charm spell but also a Hold Person spell with duration of 1 minute for both...no save) and all the other divine-patronage-driven Paladin abilities...why would you infer that the Redemption Paladin's ability is mundane while being confident (as I am and I believe you are) that the Warlock's effect is magical? 2)  The Come and Get It debates were about the edition war meme of "Martial Mind Control."  That is really it.  There were all sorts of anecdotal arguments about it, but they all boiled down to "I don't like Come and Get It (and any derivatives thereof) because it is Martial Mind Control."  Again, if this is not a magical ability, then this is (unlike CaGI) ACTUAL "MARTIAL MIND CONTROL", except much more significantly so (and infinitely less sensical for what actually happens in the moment-to-moment interchange of physical martial contests) than CaGI. One minute Charm. One minute Hold Person (effectively).  No saving throw allowed.  Yes, the enemy is already defeated in this case, but that is beside the point for this aspect of the discussion.  The "issues" with CaGI were not questions of balance.  They were about a certain loud segment of folks decrying "Martial Mind Control" (in this case, forced movement without any resolution mechanic to resolve that portion of the effect).  This is why they changed the entirety of CaGI from automatic Force Move adjacent and then Attack vs AC to Attack vs Will to resolve all. 3)  I don't see how automatically changing the creature's Starting Attitude from Hostile to Indifferent and then giving the Paladin Advantage on Wisdom (Insight) to uncover the creature's Flaw is "inelegant" (which could then be leveraged to maybe change the creature's Attitude from Indifferent to Friendly or for Advantage on Charisma check to cement the Interaction). Something like that solves a lot of problems I have with the current iteration of resolution mechanics: a)  It allows for social conflict resolution that doesn't involve "Martial Mind Control".b)  It emulates the weight of the Paladin's divinity impacting the creature's attitude (which protagonizes the player because the move from Hostile to Indifferent is guaranteed and now they can engage in thematically coherent absolution). c)  It ensures that the creature is not going to attack outright so we don't have to go the route of "mechanical patch" as  @[I][B][U][URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=996"]Tony Vargas[/URL][/U][/B][/I] called it. d)  It mechanically maps much better to an actual absolution process or trope.e)  It still requires resolution mechanics/approach success for the absolution to work.f)  I could scribe text for it that is likely shorter than the current text.[/mention]</blockquote>

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