Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="Imaro" data-source="post: 7069464" data-attributes="member: 48965">Okay addressing (a):  Even if Fey Presence isn't called out with the specific words magical... it is clearly called out as being granted by the supernatural patron of the warlock... the paladin's ability isn't called out as being granted by his divinity...unlike his spellcasting ability which is clearly designated as drawing on divine magic or his Lay on Hands ability which is called out as a "blessed" touch or even under the Sacred Oath section where the Channel Divinity abilities are called out as divine energy used to fuel magical effects.  There's literally no evidence that supports it being magical written anywhere.  It's especially obvious when we see the sources of so many paladin abilities being called out specifically when they are magical.  This doesn't support a purely magical interpretation of the ability... ambiguous maybe (though again there's tons of abilities that state outright or have a source called out that is magical), but not one where it is magical only.On to (b.): This supports my assertion as we see numerous times in the paladin's description where his special abilities are called out as specifically magical or divine.  This ability isn't and thus while arguably could be ambiguous (which I have also stated earlier in the thread but in that case you're choosing to interpret it as magical) doesn't support a purely magic interpretation either.Finally (c)  I disagree with this assertion in general.  It doesn't function like a Charm spell... it does not make the creature friendly with you... a creature does not realize it was charmed after the ability is used... a creature does not have to be reduced to zero hit points to have a charm spell used on it.  It's not effectively a hold person spell either as this ability can only be used on an enemy with zero hit points who has been brought to 0 with a blunt weapon, doesn't requires concentration to maintain it's effects, it allows speech (unlike hold person), this ability doesn't grant auto-fails on Str or Dex saves, doesn't give attacks advantage against the target and any attacks that hit him withinn 5' are not auto-crits. So yes I'm sorry but what you basically seem to be saying is that because it doesn't call it out specifically as mundane... as opposed to calling it out as magical, examples of which the book is rife with,  it must be magical... the problem with this line of thinking is that I don't see any mundane abilities that they call out as being non-magical or specifically refer to a non-magical source as granting something... they are just not called out as magical... same as this ability.Sorry if I find it a little hard to believe that every person that had an issue with it could be so easily and simplistically summed up.  But given that it seems the issue was because there was no chance to avoid it... is that correct? What mind control is taking place? I see parameters imposed, as with any condition but  I'm failing to see where a choice or reaction is actually chosen for the target by the player of the paladin.  The target is restricted from taking certain actions, which is no different from the fact that if stunned said target could not take actions or reactions and can't move...is that mind control?    I think the bigger issue(s) with CaGi were 1.) The fact that as originally published there was no way to avoid this ability (even with the paladins ability one can simply win the battle to totally bypass it) and..2.) That a tactical decision was forced upon the NPC's who were affected...i.e. mind control, a decision was made for them.  this isn't the case with the paladin's ability... no decision is actually made for any NPC independent of the DM or deciding die rolls.It's not a question of "balance" it's a question of having a way to avoid the ability affecting you (which CaGi eventually added and the paladin abiltiy already has) and whether the ability's affect forces the NPC/creature to take a specific action (this is the mind control part...which the paladin's ability doesn't have).  It's inelegant because it exacerbates the probnlem you are complaining about... now we are controlling the NPC/creatures mind with no chance to resist.  We are saying he or she chooses the become indifferent or friendly because...why exactly?  Why has the NPC made this choice and why is it taken out of the DM's hands?  That's martial mind control right there because how this NPC or creature feels about the paladin has been auto-magically adjusted for no apparent reason.a.)Yes it actually does involve "Martial Mind Control" you've auto-magically made the NPC or monster decide to be more disposed towards you.b.) No it reinforces "Martial Mind Control" and makes it easier by lowering the DC's because the NPC or creature is now indifferent or friendly (of course most creatures after taking a thrashing like that and in their right mind would probably run away at this point but we'll ignore that for now). that is the only thing it does differently.  The charmed effect protagonizes the player, giving him or her the opportunity to redeem or not and not auto-magically changing the targets feelings towards the paladin can also result in failure as opposed to guaranteed success which is also thematically coherent for this archetype.c.)But the creature can flee, hide, order an attack and so on...and why wouldn't he at indifferent and having just been beat to the edge of unconsciousness...d.) No it doesn't.  It's your personal preference but it has some major gaps in it...e.) Yes but it's pretty much trivial now thus eliminating the chance for the unreedemable villain or even one who at the end hates the paladin for what he's trying to do (since he must be indifferent now) which is also a trope for this archetype.f.) Eh and it would still have all of the problems above...</blockquote>

Verification