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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7069564" data-attributes="member: 996">Fine as far as it goes, but the Paladin is a divinely-empowered character,    Ambiguous is enough to side-step the whole G&GI comparison.  Otherwise, Manbearcan it spot-on.  :shrug:  Seems like an easy out.   It alters the creature's behavior, and state of mind.  Seems pretty comparable. More easily.   No, that it was martial.  There were plenty of spells that had affects with no attack roll or saves starting with HotFL, they roused minimal comment by comparison - ironically, at about the same time, C&GI was errata'd to take the attack roll before the pull, anyway.  It's still notorious. The subjects state of mind has been altered.  He's become 'docile' that's a mental state.    It was errata'd the attitudes toward it didn't change. If that's an example of a way to avoid the ability, there were /many/ (and much easier than outright defeating the fighter in battle) ways of avoiding it.  Stay far away from the fighter (and slow/imobilize/restrain him so he can't run up to you, place an impassible barrier between you, surround the fighter with minions/conjurations/whatever (no occupiable space adjacent, the pull fails), tag yourself with a restrained condition <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> etc...etc... Not so much.  Had it been "on it's turn, the enemy must approach you," that would have been unique.  Tons of powers pulled, though, it was no different from any of those in a tactical-decision sense.   His state of mind is changed, though.   Character abilities that 'just work,' sure.  If you can do something anyone can,  just better (or a lot better, like Expertise), you declare an action and the DM might decide something else applies or that it's impossible.  But abilities like spells just happen - they may not always succeed at what you were trying to accomplish with them, but they happen - and an auto-success, is well, successful. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />  Abilities like those, and the one we're talking about, are thus character- and class- (or sub-class in this case) defining and concept supporting.  Defining/supporting in a way that's less dependent on DM magnanimity than being really strong, or being really good at a skill or other check that anyone might attempt.So even if it's rough, or has narrative-consistency issues for some folks, I hope they keep it in some form.* It looks like 6 equal a ton.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />   Seriously, though, only one of those is anything like an auto success (never getting lost), two let you move at full speed while attempting something, but you still might fail, and the other three give you better results when you succeed, but not guarantee success (gathering twice as much food as normal doesn't help when you'd've otherwise gathered none, for instance).</blockquote>

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