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Message: <blockquote data-quote="GreyLord" data-source="post: 9877099" data-attributes="member: 4348">I typed up a long reply and then thought, this is stupid.  There is no point in arguing about this.  It's dumb to argue.  If you guys want to make up ways you think people played back then...go ahead.  If you want to try to state that the groups I played with were playing it differently than how we actually played it...Imagine away.  Be my guest.  In the end, how we played isn't really pertinent to what the conversation was, which was how to rebalance the thief.I explained a very easy and simple fix (and various editions with 3e and beyond have had their own takes on this from taking 10, to the ideas in 2014 that for basic tasks a skilled individual basically succeeds).  If you don't want suggestions to how to rebalance the thief that's fine, but don't be a hypocrite and cry about how the thief is broken if you don't even want to consider ideas that actually make the thief more fun to play and basically is a rebalance without really all that much of a redesign.It's a simple fix, one that we used a long time ago and which I still use sometimes in games (regardless of what you guys think or imagine how I or those around me played).  It made the thief easy to use and simple enough in utilization.   You still roll occasionally on the table (but only if the thief is challenged in the use of their skill in some way, for example trying to hear something through a thick door and such, unchallenged is an automatic success) for your thief skills, but not as much and not as often.  Instead, the thief is far more successful at the usage of their skills than they would be using only the basic rolls of the table at lower levels.PS:  That said, limiting hearing noise to only being able to listening at doors is a little odd of an interpretation.  I would think that's not that fun, especially when you want to try to hear noise elsewhere...but you do you.  Your the ruler of your table, not I, but even with later versions of D&D I don't think I'd ever limit that ability or skill or decisions to try to hear noise that massively.  No wonder  your thieves feel broken.  If you restrict them to only being able to use Hear Noise to listening at doors and then they have to roll...I'd feel it was a little restrictive too!!!Once again, you do you though.  It is your table.  YOU are the one who decides how the rules are and how the game is played.  In OD&D that was one idea (more like...a thought if you will) that really existed and DM's fiat was far more powerful than I see many portray it today.  It was mentioned in AD&D (1e) as well, though I think it got overlooked a LOT in favor of tournament rules and such.  In the end, it's your table...your rules.[edited to try to be more polite and less aggressive]</blockquote>

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