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Message: <blockquote data-quote="MrMyth" data-source="post: 5289016" data-attributes="member: 61155">We've seen one test that results in the dragon wiping the party twice - that doesn't mean it is a guaranteed death. I can just as easily imagine 5 monsters of level+2 taking down a party as well. My first intro to 4E, when it was previewed at Winter Fantasy, I think, involved one adventure that got TPKed by some hobgoblins, and another that got TPKed by the original black dragon. Was the problem the specific monsters, or that we were playing some pregen characters again level +2 or +3 encounters? That's the point - this is a hard encounter, whether it is a dragon or otherwise. Is it too hard? Maybe, though I don't think we have enough experience yet to really judge.  I suspect well optimized level 2 characters will still be able to handle this guy. I suspect an average group of level 2 PCs will find it a tough fight and maybe die. I suspect an average group of level 4 PCs will be able to handle this guy.  Really, the biggest danger I see is that a fight with this guy can get too easily influenced by a few circumstances - it becomes a lot harder a fight if he surprises the party and catches them in a tight environment. How much does the DM take that into account? That's always been a tough question to answer.</blockquote>