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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Aegeri" data-source="post: 5289564" data-attributes="member: 78116">All solos have the same hit points, regardless of what creature typethey are. It's: total HP=((8*level)+con)*4)I am not convinced 2nd level PCs should be taking on an EL+2 solo. Ifind this is an immeasurably swingy fight, even when the dragon isn'tthis well designed. For example, I've TPKed more than my fair share oftest parties with the brown and white dragons as well, who are onlylevel 3 lurker/brute respectively. Low level solo fights have alsobeen hilariously swingy, since forever. This creature simply punishesit additionally because it retains its action economy so strongly.5. At paragon and epic level, EL+2 encounters are beating the everliving snot out of PCs. Since MM3 and adapting my encounter design Ihave run one combat above EL +2 in all of my epic tier game.All of my combats have been very challenging, with PCs being routinelybloodied and needing to spend a good deal of powers to survive. AnEL+2 encounter is a hard encounter. It is in heroic, it is withstandard monsters, it is with a single solo and it is from heroic allthe way to epic now. DMs have got used to throwing extreme ELs atplayers to have to challenge them, my paragon/epic games before wereusing whopping EL+5 or even EL+7 encounters to challenge my players.What we're seeing isn't the system not working, this is the samesystem now working exactly as intended. An EL fight doesn't haveany chance of TPKign your party, but it isn't going to be utterlyirrelevant and do nothing. An EL+1 encounter is a slightly harderbattle. An EL+2 can get hairy and everything over an EL+3 ispotentially lethal. Complicating the argument here is that PCs atlevel 2 do not have that much to do and fewer options. Again,this dragon challenges a party of its own level and demolishes lowlevel PCs. This isn't because the level of encounter system fails,it's because we're taking the very extreme of PC power (level 2) andtrying to figure out why something designed to take on higher levelPCs kills them. I mean, the answer is pretty obvious here.Also in my IRL game, one of the encounters that have killed PCs hasbeen an EL+2 with standard monsters. You can do a LOT with standardmonsters. Don't underestimate them by any means. I haven't run anysolos and they will fight their first solo probably around level 5.A standard encounter should be challenging, without beingoverwhelming. It is not supposed to be "easy". An EL+1 is a slightlyharder standard encounter. An EL+2 is supposed to be difficult andbeyond that you're just ramping it up quite quickly.This is in no way representative of what happens in 4E. I mean, we'retalking about very low level heroic PCs, in horribly optimized partiesthat lack things without a leader being utterly mauled by this. Wellhonestly, I could kill a leaderless party with a white or brown dragonas well and they are only level 3! Personally though, I am rarelyusing high level encounters now. MM3 powers, damage and similar meansthat I think about EL, EL+1 and EL+2 encounters primarily now. When Iwant to kill someone, I go up to EL +4 and thats an absolutely bananasencounter.I also use a LOT of encounters with standard monsters and standardmonsters from MM3/Demonomicon can pound PCs ferociously. People inthis thread have forgot that solos aren't the only thing that haschanged. Standard monsters have equally got a power upgrade to theirabilities. When comparing a post-MM3 solo, compare them with post-MM3standard monsters. Observe what Jackalweres for example do to a lowlevel party. In fact that's a fantastic example: Take an EL+2encounter worth of Jackalweres against that level 2 party. Do youhonestly think the level 2 party is going to come off better? I mean,standard monsters have advantages that solos don't and disadvantages.They have more actions overall, especially with the improved powerdesign and can gang up very effectively. It's also harder to imposeeffects on every creature in the encounter than with a solo (forobvious reasons).Note that while Jackalweres are an aberration, there are lot of GOODlow level heroic monsters like shadows that can seriously hurt a partymajorly. Make yourself an EL+2 encounter against that level 2 partywith a secret of vecna (MM3), a ghoul (MM3 version I prefer), 2shadows (MM3) and some other minions to round it out and that will putsome serious hurt on the party.To be perfectly honest, in my epic game at 30 my PCs would be happierto see one EL+3 solo than one encounter of EL+3 standard demons.</blockquote>

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