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<blockquote data-quote="ashockney" data-source="post: 4601321" data-attributes="member: 1363">An example of what I mean:At 18th level, an iconic Dwarven Fighter has four attacks per round with a Dwarven Waraxe, starting with +32 attack bonus (smooth attack bonus of +25), dealing an average of 24 damage.&nbsp; If the average AC of monsters found in an average EL of 18 is 28, that indicates that the fighter should hit on average 4 or greater (85%).&nbsp; That means he'll deal an average of .85 x 4 x 24 = 82 points of damage per round (plus some love for crits).&nbsp; His peer, the sorcerer, using similar math can easily deal 15d6 damage (average 52 damage) to a whole group of enemies (with corresponding, albeit difficult) saves for half damage.His peer, the rogue, can deal 166 points of damage per round in melee or 88 points from ranged attacks. (6 attacks, dual wielding daggers with weapon finesse and sneak attack)When in comparison, the rogue has a distinct advantage/role in combat.&nbsp; The fighter is the &quot;utility knife&quot; dishing damage to anything, anywhere without limit.&nbsp; The fighter's tough as nails, the rogue's like a paper doll...if you can find him or hit him.&nbsp; The sorcerer is classic artillery.&nbsp; He can blow up everything, or blow the hell out of any one thing (Polar Ray would deal around 18d6 = 63 damage single target, no save).&nbsp; If you take away the multiple attacks from the fighters and/or rogues, they will become even MORE powerful in comparison.&nbsp; Arcane casters will deal more damage, to more people, than the fighter (and others).&nbsp; In addition, they have access to most of the control, utility, and buffs. In high level games that I've run, I've had players who were running fighters say that they felt all they were there to do was keep the mage alive long enough to blow everything up.&nbsp; That's not a very fun/teamwork oriented balancing.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="ashockney, post: 4601321, member: 1363"] An example of what I mean: At 18th level, an iconic Dwarven Fighter has four attacks per round with a Dwarven Waraxe, starting with +32 attack bonus (smooth attack bonus of +25), dealing an average of 24 damage. If the average AC of monsters found in an average EL of 18 is 28, that indicates that the fighter should hit on average 4 or greater (85%). That means he'll deal an average of .85 x 4 x 24 = 82 points of damage per round (plus some love for crits). His peer, the sorcerer, using similar math can easily deal 15d6 damage (average 52 damage) to a whole group of enemies (with corresponding, albeit difficult) saves for half damage. His peer, the rogue, can deal 166 points of damage per round in melee or 88 points from ranged attacks. (6 attacks, dual wielding daggers with weapon finesse and sneak attack) When in comparison, the rogue has a distinct advantage/role in combat. The fighter is the "utility knife" dishing damage to anything, anywhere without limit. The fighter's tough as nails, the rogue's like a paper doll...if you can find him or hit him. The sorcerer is classic artillery. He can blow up everything, or blow the hell out of any one thing (Polar Ray would deal around 18d6 = 63 damage single target, no save). If you take away the multiple attacks from the fighters and/or rogues, they will become even MORE powerful in comparison. Arcane casters will deal more damage, to more people, than the fighter (and others). In addition, they have access to most of the control, utility, and buffs. In high level games that I've run, I've had players who were running fighters say that they felt all they were there to do was keep the mage alive long enough to blow everything up. That's not a very fun/teamwork oriented balancing. [/QUOTE]

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