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<blockquote data-quote="Volsung" data-source="post: 3541050" data-attributes="member: 11865">Good catch! I accidentally used the damage for a large bastard sword instead of a greatsword.If I redo the numbers with the corrected damage the Goliath edges out the Orc.&nbsp; However I noticed if I gave the orc Monkey Grip (and a bigger sword) instead of Improved Toughness it swung back in his favor, and if the Goliath had Cleave instead of Weapon Specialization he's right back where he strated.&nbsp; Ultimately, the orc ends up being the most versatile (something I never expected to type).Completely aside from this issue, I'm not planning on allowing Monkey Grip or any creature with Powerful Build in my game (I'm in the &quot;go Large or go home&quot; crowd).&nbsp; Still it makes for an interesting, if purely academic, exercise.Your calculations were a little off on the Half-Celestial (to be fair my misspelling of brethren is by far the more egregious error).&nbsp; It should have read:Half-Celestial: Con 18 = 64 hp, levels (12 + 15*6.5) = 109.5, total = 173.5.Glass Jaw of Steel puts him about 18 points ahead, which isn't that terrible at 20th level.Of course, this leads one to consider how this would look in a game with a generous point buy and a player bent on creating a damage soaking monster.&nbsp; Column &quot;A&quot; is a dwarven barbarian with a starting Constitution score of 18, who always raises Constitution when the free ability point comes up.Column &quot;B&quot; is a half-celestial dwarven barbarian, with an initial Constitution of 22, and like the above dwarf always raises Constitution.Column &quot;C&quot; gives the dwarfinal the Glass Jaw of Steel Feat.Column &quot;D&quot; gives the celestidwaf in &quot;C&quot; the Reduce Level Adjustment feat when it is first available at ECL 16.[CODE]ECL&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; A&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; B&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; C&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; D1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 17&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; --&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; --&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; --2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 28.5&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; --&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; --&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; --3&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 40&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; --&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; --&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; --4&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 51.5&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; --&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; --&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; --5&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 63&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 19&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 51&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; --6&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 74.5&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 32.5&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 64.5&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; --7&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 86&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 46&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 78&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; --8&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 105.5&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 59.5&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 91.5&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; --9&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 118&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 73&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 105&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; --10&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 130.5&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 86.5&nbsp; &nbsp; 118.5&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; --11&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 143&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 100&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 132&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; --12&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 155.5&nbsp; &nbsp; 121.5&nbsp; &nbsp; 157.5&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; --13&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 168&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 136&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 172&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; --14&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 180.5&nbsp; &nbsp; 150.5&nbsp; &nbsp; 186.5&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; --15&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 193&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 165&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 201&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; --16&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 221.5&nbsp; &nbsp; 179.5&nbsp; &nbsp; 215.5&nbsp; &nbsp; 22117&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 235&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 194&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 230&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 235.518&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 248.5&nbsp; &nbsp; 208.5&nbsp; &nbsp; 244.5&nbsp; &nbsp; 25019&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 262&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 223&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 259&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 283.520&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 275.5&nbsp; &nbsp; 253.5&nbsp; &nbsp; 293.5&nbsp; &nbsp; 299[/CODE]So, this has be wondering if I should create something of a sunset, to that Glass Jaw of Steel starts loosing its potency when the level adjustment makes up less that half of the ECL instead of when the character starts taking Reduce Level Adjustment.&nbsp; Like so:GASS JAW OF STEEL [GENERAL]Characters with level adjustment become less vulnerable.Benefit: Your maximum hit points increase by 1 + Con modifier per point of level adjustment, with a minimum of one point per point of level adjustment.&nbsp; For each hit die you have greater than your total level adjustment your level adjustment is considered one point less for the purpose of calculating the additional hit points provided by this feat.Here's the table above with the change to the feat.[CODE]ECL&nbsp; &nbsp; A&nbsp; &nbsp; B&nbsp; &nbsp; C&nbsp; &nbsp; D1&nbsp; &nbsp; 17&nbsp; &nbsp; --&nbsp; &nbsp; --&nbsp; &nbsp; --2&nbsp; &nbsp; 28.5&nbsp; &nbsp; --&nbsp; &nbsp; --&nbsp; &nbsp; --3&nbsp; &nbsp; 40&nbsp; &nbsp; --&nbsp; &nbsp; --&nbsp; &nbsp; --4&nbsp; &nbsp; 51.5&nbsp; &nbsp; --&nbsp; &nbsp; --&nbsp; &nbsp; --5&nbsp; &nbsp; 63&nbsp; &nbsp; 19&nbsp; &nbsp; 51&nbsp; &nbsp; --6&nbsp; &nbsp; 74.5&nbsp; &nbsp; 32.5&nbsp; &nbsp; 64.5&nbsp; &nbsp; --7&nbsp; &nbsp; 86&nbsp; &nbsp; 46&nbsp; &nbsp; 78&nbsp; &nbsp; --8&nbsp; &nbsp; 105.5&nbsp; &nbsp; 59.5&nbsp; &nbsp; 91.5&nbsp; &nbsp; --9&nbsp; &nbsp; 118&nbsp; &nbsp; 73&nbsp; &nbsp; 97&nbsp; &nbsp; --10&nbsp; &nbsp; 130.5&nbsp; &nbsp; 86.5&nbsp; &nbsp; 102.5&nbsp; &nbsp; --11&nbsp; &nbsp; 143&nbsp; &nbsp; 100&nbsp; &nbsp; 108&nbsp; &nbsp; --12&nbsp; &nbsp; 155.5&nbsp; &nbsp; 121.5&nbsp; &nbsp; 121.5&nbsp; &nbsp; --13&nbsp; &nbsp; 168&nbsp; &nbsp; 136&nbsp; &nbsp; 136&nbsp; &nbsp; --14&nbsp; &nbsp; 180.5&nbsp; &nbsp; 150.5&nbsp; &nbsp; 150.5&nbsp; &nbsp; --15&nbsp; &nbsp; 193&nbsp; &nbsp; 165&nbsp; &nbsp; 165&nbsp; &nbsp; --16&nbsp; &nbsp; 221.5&nbsp; &nbsp; 179.5&nbsp; &nbsp; 179.5&nbsp; &nbsp; 19417&nbsp; &nbsp; 235&nbsp; &nbsp; 194&nbsp; &nbsp; 194&nbsp; &nbsp; 208.518&nbsp; &nbsp; 248.5&nbsp; &nbsp; 208.5&nbsp; &nbsp; 208.5&nbsp; &nbsp; 22319&nbsp; &nbsp; 262&nbsp; &nbsp; 223&nbsp; &nbsp; 223&nbsp; &nbsp; 253.520&nbsp; &nbsp; 275.5&nbsp; &nbsp; 253.5&nbsp; &nbsp; 253.5&nbsp; &nbsp; 269[/CODE]That looks better.&nbsp; Now the half-celestial dwarven barbarian can still fulfill his role as tank in a 5th level party (well, at least he's trying), yet his hit point total never exceeds his full-blooded counterpart, which is what I had initially intended).The damage error is addressed above.Orcs also have Darkvision, which gives a distinct advantage is he's fighting either of the big guys in the dark.&nbsp; Besides, characters seem to spend more time fighting indoors, underground, at night, at dawn, at dusk, in the rain and under overcast skies, than on sunny days.Trying to analyze this at higher levels is the main problem.&nbsp; Threats tend to be a bit more varied, and character abilities can shift dramatically with the introduction of prestige classes.&nbsp; In some cases the loss of feats can delay entry to PrCs, or make it more dificult to take advantage of a PrCs features.EDIT: fixed the tables</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Volsung, post: 3541050, member: 11865"] Good catch! I accidentally used the damage for a large bastard sword instead of a greatsword. If I redo the numbers with the corrected damage the Goliath edges out the Orc. However I noticed if I gave the orc Monkey Grip (and a bigger sword) instead of Improved Toughness it swung back in his favor, and if the Goliath had Cleave instead of Weapon Specialization he's right back where he strated. Ultimately, the orc ends up being the most versatile (something I never expected to type). Completely aside from this issue, I'm not planning on allowing Monkey Grip or any creature with Powerful Build in my game (I'm in the "go Large or go home" crowd). Still it makes for an interesting, if purely academic, exercise. Your calculations were a little off on the Half-Celestial (to be fair my misspelling of brethren is by far the more egregious error). It should have read: Half-Celestial: Con 18 = 64 hp, levels (12 + 15*6.5) = 109.5, total = 173.5 . Glass Jaw of Steel puts him about 18 points ahead, which isn't that terrible at 20th level. Of course, this leads one to consider how this would look in a game with a generous point buy and a player bent on creating a damage soaking monster. Column "A" is a dwarven barbarian with a starting Constitution score of 18, who always raises Constitution when the free ability point comes up. Column "B" is a half-celestial dwarven barbarian, with an initial Constitution of 22, and like the above dwarf always raises Constitution. Column "C" gives the dwarfinal the Glass Jaw of Steel Feat. Column "D" gives the celestidwaf in "C" the Reduce Level Adjustment feat when it is first available at ECL 16. [CODE]ECL A B C D 1 17 -- -- -- 2 28.5 -- -- -- 3 40 -- -- -- 4 51.5 -- -- -- 5 63 19 51 -- 6 74.5 32.5 64.5 -- 7 86 46 78 -- 8 105.5 59.5 91.5 -- 9 118 73 105 -- 10 130.5 86.5 118.5 -- 11 143 100 132 -- 12 155.5 121.5 157.5 -- 13 168 136 172 -- 14 180.5 150.5 186.5 -- 15 193 165 201 -- 16 221.5 179.5 215.5 221 17 235 194 230 235.5 18 248.5 208.5 244.5 250 19 262 223 259 283.5 20 275.5 253.5 293.5 299[/CODE] So, this has be wondering if I should create something of a sunset, to that Glass Jaw of Steel starts loosing its potency when the level adjustment makes up less that half of the ECL instead of when the character starts taking Reduce Level Adjustment. Like so: GASS JAW OF STEEL [GENERAL] Characters with level adjustment become less vulnerable. Benefit: Your maximum hit points increase by 1 + Con modifier per point of level adjustment, with a minimum of one point per point of level adjustment. For each hit die you have greater than your total level adjustment your level adjustment is considered one point less for the purpose of calculating the additional hit points provided by this feat. Here's the table above with the change to the feat. [CODE]ECL A B C D 1 17 -- -- -- 2 28.5 -- -- -- 3 40 -- -- -- 4 51.5 -- -- -- 5 63 19 51 -- 6 74.5 32.5 64.5 -- 7 86 46 78 -- 8 105.5 59.5 91.5 -- 9 118 73 97 -- 10 130.5 86.5 102.5 -- 11 143 100 108 -- 12 155.5 121.5 121.5 -- 13 168 136 136 -- 14 180.5 150.5 150.5 -- 15 193 165 165 -- 16 221.5 179.5 179.5 194 17 235 194 194 208.5 18 248.5 208.5 208.5 223 19 262 223 223 253.5 20 275.5 253.5 253.5 269[/CODE] That looks better. Now the half-celestial dwarven barbarian can still fulfill his role as tank in a 5th level party (well, at least he's trying), yet his hit point total never exceeds his full-blooded counterpart, which is what I had initially intended). The damage error is addressed above. Orcs also have Darkvision, which gives a distinct advantage is he's fighting either of the big guys in the dark. Besides, characters seem to spend more time fighting indoors, underground, at night, at dawn, at dusk, in the rain and under overcast skies, than on sunny days. Trying to analyze this at higher levels is the main problem. Threats tend to be a bit more varied, and character abilities can shift dramatically with the introduction of prestige classes. In some cases the loss of feats can delay entry to PrCs, or make it more dificult to take advantage of a PrCs features. EDIT: fixed the tables [/QUOTE]

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